tell me you’re a coward without telling me
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@Athena fwiw I agree with you, just, damage control atm
a large portion of the team is anti-LLM but a few key folks in charge are stonewalling discussion
@Athena also just wanted to comment here because like the discussion was annoying enough as is and while I get the desire to just jump in and call people out it is extremely unhelpful and just leads to more work for the people who are ultimately on your side and have to work with everyone else
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@Athena fwiw I agree with you, just, damage control atm
a large portion of the team is anti-LLM but a few key folks in charge are stonewalling discussion
@clarfonthey I really need to be taking more notes about who is revealing themselves to be so fucked up right now
Who else would you say, so that I can put them on my “never trust ever” list
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@clarfonthey I really need to be taking more notes about who is revealing themselves to be so fucked up right now
Who else would you say, so that I can put them on my “never trust ever” list
@Athena I've been burning enough bridges lately, I'm not going to just call people out for you here
pretty much everyone who has been blocking consensus however has publicly commented on at least one of the available policies, so, feel free to take notes if you want. I'm just not gonna burn bridges for you considering how already fucking exhausted I am trying to propose a separate policy
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@Athena also just wanted to comment here because like the discussion was annoying enough as is and while I get the desire to just jump in and call people out it is extremely unhelpful and just leads to more work for the people who are ultimately on your side and have to work with everyone else
@clarfonthey and I think you’re a coward doing fascists’ work for them
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@clarfonthey and I think you’re a coward doing fascists’ work for them
@Athena if you wanna think that, feel free, but I both have a full alternative policy which does not pull any punches and all you appear to have accomplished is locking the thread so now nobody can discuss anything in it
I just know that when someone controls the space going in and making a mess does not accomplish anything besides you getting kicked out and the janitorial staff being very annoyed, which is kinda what's happening here
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tell me you’re a coward without telling me
No comment on this PR may mention the following topics:
Long-term social or economic impact of LLMs
The environmental impact of LLMs
Anything to do with the copyright status of LLM output
Moral judgements about people who use LLMs
We have asked the moderation team to help us enforce these rules.Add an LLM policy for `rust-lang/rust` by jyn514 · Pull Request #1040 · rust-lang/rust-forge
Information useful to people contributing to Rust. Contribute to rust-lang/rust-forge development by creating an account on GitHub.
GitHub (github.com)
@Athena Utterly gobsmacked by the comment restrictions OP tried to set up for that PR.
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@Athena if you wanna think that, feel free, but I both have a full alternative policy which does not pull any punches and all you appear to have accomplished is locking the thread so now nobody can discuss anything in it
I just know that when someone controls the space going in and making a mess does not accomplish anything besides you getting kicked out and the janitorial staff being very annoyed, which is kinda what's happening here
@clarfonthey the rust team has demonstrated it’s gonna do what it wants and what it wants is bend over backwards to make language model addicts happy
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cited as reason to allow LLM contributions experimentally:
Instead of using ethical concerns as a basis for policy, we should justify policy on the basis of how something is impacting our ability as a project to deliver a really great programming language.
if the orphan grinder lets us make a better programming language then FIRE THOSE BABIES UP
Yannow I managed to find the strength not to follow “ethics don’t matter” guy to fedi to berate him but someone from that thread sure did that to berate me about being angry about it!!
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cited as reason to allow LLM contributions experimentally:
Instead of using ethical concerns as a basis for policy, we should justify policy on the basis of how something is impacting our ability as a project to deliver a really great programming language.
if the orphan grinder lets us make a better programming language then FIRE THOSE BABIES UP
@Athena
"we know we are putting them at risk, but these tiny child bodys fit in the small mining tunnels the best. we would loose a lot of productivity if we banned this praxis. NO ETHICS DISCUSSION PLEASE" -
@clarfonthey the rust team has demonstrated it’s gonna do what it wants and what it wants is bend over backwards to make language model addicts happy
@Athena oh yes, it has, but you underestimate how many people on the team are pissed about that and want it to change but need to be diplomatic about it so they don't lose their jobs or positions
like, the tech industry is extremely unfavorable to people who dissent to LLMs and just showing up and complaining that people aren't doing enough is putting these people in impossible positions where they agree with you but are forced to say nothing and let the fascists dunk on you because they can't be so overt about it
I've been especially frustrated lately because this has been happening to me too, but like, at least I know what the situation is and am working on changing it. again, I'm just pointing out that even though you were extremely tame in the discussion relative to what you're saying here, all you did is invite more folks to throw shit and get the discussion locked so now not even I can comment on it
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@Athena oh yes, it has, but you underestimate how many people on the team are pissed about that and want it to change but need to be diplomatic about it so they don't lose their jobs or positions
like, the tech industry is extremely unfavorable to people who dissent to LLMs and just showing up and complaining that people aren't doing enough is putting these people in impossible positions where they agree with you but are forced to say nothing and let the fascists dunk on you because they can't be so overt about it
I've been especially frustrated lately because this has been happening to me too, but like, at least I know what the situation is and am working on changing it. again, I'm just pointing out that even though you were extremely tame in the discussion relative to what you're saying here, all you did is invite more folks to throw shit and get the discussion locked so now not even I can comment on it
@clarfonthey ah yes the anti-fascists are bad because they are too loud and yelly and turn people into fascists by being annoying so anti-fascists need to shut up and play by the fascists rules, got it
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cited as reason to allow LLM contributions experimentally:
Instead of using ethical concerns as a basis for policy, we should justify policy on the basis of how something is impacting our ability as a project to deliver a really great programming language.
if the orphan grinder lets us make a better programming language then FIRE THOSE BABIES UP
@Athena
You should really pause and reconsider your thoughts when you start any argument with "instead of ethical concerns..." -
cited as reason to allow LLM contributions experimentally:
Instead of using ethical concerns as a basis for policy, we should justify policy on the basis of how something is impacting our ability as a project to deliver a really great programming language.
if the orphan grinder lets us make a better programming language then FIRE THOSE BABIES UP
@Athena Would you be willing to link this quote for me? I can't find it, but unfortunately can totally believe someone said it.
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@clarfonthey ah yes the anti-fascists are bad because they are too loud and yelly and turn people into fascists by being annoying so anti-fascists need to shut up and play by the fascists rules, got it
@Athena there's a difference between tone policing and telling people the reality of what's going on
I've been tone policed to hell and back and I don't want to tell you what to do. the reality though is that it doesn't matter what I tell you to do because I know the effect; the thread is now locked from discussion and neither of us can participate
does that make you happy?
like, ultimately, I disagree that playing nice with people is going to be the way to get things done. but I just wanted to let you know just how many people are on the same page with you and to know who you should be putting energy into fighting and who you're just annoying by arguing with
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tell me you’re a coward without telling me
No comment on this PR may mention the following topics:
Long-term social or economic impact of LLMs
The environmental impact of LLMs
Anything to do with the copyright status of LLM output
Moral judgements about people who use LLMs
We have asked the moderation team to help us enforce these rules.Add an LLM policy for `rust-lang/rust` by jyn514 · Pull Request #1040 · rust-lang/rust-forge
Information useful to people contributing to Rust. Contribute to rust-lang/rust-forge development by creating an account on GitHub.
GitHub (github.com)
@Athena "Ignoring every valid reason that we shouldn't use LLMs, including those we don't know yet, there are no reasons we shouldn't use LLMs."
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cited as reason to allow LLM contributions experimentally:
Instead of using ethical concerns as a basis for policy, we should justify policy on the basis of how something is impacting our ability as a project to deliver a really great programming language.
if the orphan grinder lets us make a better programming language then FIRE THOSE BABIES UP
@Athena
At least techbros are finally being honest. Wrong and evil, but at least they're honest about it. -
@Athena there's a difference between tone policing and telling people the reality of what's going on
I've been tone policed to hell and back and I don't want to tell you what to do. the reality though is that it doesn't matter what I tell you to do because I know the effect; the thread is now locked from discussion and neither of us can participate
does that make you happy?
like, ultimately, I disagree that playing nice with people is going to be the way to get things done. but I just wanted to let you know just how many people are on the same page with you and to know who you should be putting energy into fighting and who you're just annoying by arguing with
@Athena we all have an extremely finite amount of energy to expend every day and someone who doesn't know what's going on showing up, labelling everyone as cowards, and openly "hoping to get banned" for their actions doesn't do anything but take away that energy we were going to put into action
like I'm not saying you're wrong for doing this, I'm just saying that you should understand what you're doing
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@Athena we all have an extremely finite amount of energy to expend every day and someone who doesn't know what's going on showing up, labelling everyone as cowards, and openly "hoping to get banned" for their actions doesn't do anything but take away that energy we were going to put into action
like I'm not saying you're wrong for doing this, I'm just saying that you should understand what you're doing
@clarfonthey I am satisfied with the current results of my actions yes
and what do you think you’re doing by showing up in my mentions uninvited to scold me for shit?
How effective do you think it would be if I did the same to Mr. Wood?
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tell me you’re a coward without telling me
No comment on this PR may mention the following topics:
Long-term social or economic impact of LLMs
The environmental impact of LLMs
Anything to do with the copyright status of LLM output
Moral judgements about people who use LLMs
We have asked the moderation team to help us enforce these rules.Add an LLM policy for `rust-lang/rust` by jyn514 · Pull Request #1040 · rust-lang/rust-forge
Information useful to people contributing to Rust. Contribute to rust-lang/rust-forge development by creating an account on GitHub.
GitHub (github.com)
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@Athena Stupid reductive utilitarianism has been the subject of satire since Dickens at least and technophiles do it straight.
@Athena Looking at it a bit more, the argument against basing their policy on ethics is a direct rejection of Kant's categorical imperative, that you should always act as if your decisions are a model for everyone else in an analogous situation. Kant deliberately doesn't take into account whether you will influence anyone.
As with any major ethical school, it's easy to find counterexamples for Kant.
But that's not relevant in this case, because the Rust Foundation *is* influential, and denying responsibility fails not just as an abstract question but on practical grounds.
