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  3. We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

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llmclaudemythosinfosec
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  • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

    We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

    You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

    ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

    We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

    Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

    Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

    Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

    They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

    We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

    I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

    And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

    It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

    I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

    Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

    You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

    Yeah, that's gone now.

    #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

    engel@chaos.socialE This user is from outside of this forum
    engel@chaos.socialE This user is from outside of this forum
    engel@chaos.social
    wrote last edited by
    #58

    @tinker am i the only one who is disturbed by the combination of a really good point and heroification of neuro spicy folk?

    Neurospicy’s are superior human beings! (Satire)

    tinker@infosec.exchangeT 1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

      We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

      You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

      ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

      We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

      Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

      Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

      Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

      They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

      We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

      I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

      And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

      It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

      I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

      Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

      You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

      Yeah, that's gone now.

      #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

      sstrader@masto.aiS This user is from outside of this forum
      sstrader@masto.aiS This user is from outside of this forum
      sstrader@masto.ai
      wrote last edited by
      #59

      @tinker "nuerodivergent [chose] boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc)'

      No. We simply had engineers and developers who cared about what engineers and developers care about: logic, accuracy, consistency. They were replaced with people who cosplay at engineering. Skill was replaced with the affectation of skill.

      1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

        We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

        You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

        ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

        We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

        Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

        Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

        Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

        They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

        We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

        I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

        And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

        It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

        I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

        Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

        You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

        Yeah, that's gone now.

        #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

        mavu@mastodon.socialM This user is from outside of this forum
        mavu@mastodon.socialM This user is from outside of this forum
        mavu@mastodon.social
        wrote last edited by
        #60

        @tinker i started to ask the search engine the way the most stupid person i can imagine would ask.
        That helps sometimes and always fills me with a deep semse of loss and sadness.

        1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • R relay@relay.mycrowd.ca shared this topic
        • h2onolan@infosec.exchangeH h2onolan@infosec.exchange

          @tinker i get unreasonably upset when i try to use a search the way it was intended and get in response: “fuck you here is what we decided you should have searched for and also here are some slops”

          whitecattamer@mastodon.onlineW This user is from outside of this forum
          whitecattamer@mastodon.onlineW This user is from outside of this forum
          whitecattamer@mastodon.online
          wrote last edited by
          #61

          @h2onolan @tinker
          “Did you mean to search fo-“
          “I DID NOT”

          1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

            We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

            You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

            ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

            We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

            Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

            Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

            Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

            They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

            We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

            I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

            And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

            It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

            I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

            Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

            You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

            Yeah, that's gone now.

            #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

            soulfire@sharkey.jarexibackblaze.xyzS This user is from outside of this forum
            soulfire@sharkey.jarexibackblaze.xyzS This user is from outside of this forum
            soulfire@sharkey.jarexibackblaze.xyz
            wrote last edited by
            #62

            @tinker@infosec.exchange I'm neurodivergent and I like both to be honest. The thought of being able to describe a really precise niche question and then shave off everything else with operators.

            coming from someone who often uses
            site:*.edu and -site:stupidwebsite.com

            1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

              We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

              You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

              ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

              We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

              Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

              Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

              Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

              They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

              We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

              I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

              And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

              It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

              I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

              Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

              You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

              Yeah, that's gone now.

              #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

              nikclayton@mastodon.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
              nikclayton@mastodon.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
              nikclayton@mastodon.social
              wrote last edited by
              #63

              @tinker

              > Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

              If you think wanting natural language search is a recent desire, or invention, or a tool of the neurotypical, you are woefully misinformed.

              E.g., https://www.mcgovern.org/the-legacy-of-patrick-j-mcgovern/from-the-pages-of-tech-history/april-4-1973-geologists-use-natural-language-system-to-study-moon-samples/ from the early '70s.

              Or https://github.com/JanWielemaker/chat80 in the early '80s.

              More history in https://www.e3s-conferences.org/articles/e3sconf/pdf/2021/05/e3sconf_iccsre2021_01039.pdf.

              tinker@infosec.exchangeT 1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

                You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

                ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

                We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

                Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

                Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

                Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

                They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

                We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

                I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

                And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

                It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

                I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

                Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

                You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

                Yeah, that's gone now.

                #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

                crowbriarhexe@tech.lgbtC This user is from outside of this forum
                crowbriarhexe@tech.lgbtC This user is from outside of this forum
                crowbriarhexe@tech.lgbt
                wrote last edited by
                #64

                @tinker thank you, I feel seen

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                  We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

                  You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

                  ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

                  We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

                  Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

                  Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

                  Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

                  They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

                  We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

                  I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

                  And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

                  It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

                  I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

                  Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

                  You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

                  Yeah, that's gone now.

                  #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

                  n_dimension@infosec.exchangeN This user is from outside of this forum
                  n_dimension@infosec.exchangeN This user is from outside of this forum
                  n_dimension@infosec.exchange
                  wrote last edited by
                  #65

                  @tinker

                  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VTjsDNq1Eqw

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                    We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

                    You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

                    ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

                    We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

                    Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

                    Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

                    Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

                    They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

                    We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

                    I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

                    And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

                    It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

                    I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

                    Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

                    You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

                    Yeah, that's gone now.

                    #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

                    landelare@mastodon.gamedev.placeL This user is from outside of this forum
                    landelare@mastodon.gamedev.placeL This user is from outside of this forum
                    landelare@mastodon.gamedev.place
                    wrote last edited by
                    #66

                    @tinker I miss proper search syntax so much. There was a help page explaining it, an advanced form, and they even taught it in normie school... 😮‍💨

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                      We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

                      You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

                      ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

                      We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

                      Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

                      Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

                      Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

                      They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

                      We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

                      I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

                      And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

                      It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

                      I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

                      Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

                      You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

                      Yeah, that's gone now.

                      #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

                      tinker@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                      tinker@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                      tinker@infosec.exchange
                      wrote last edited by
                      #67

                      After reading some of the replies to the OP (and you should read them, too. It's a good discussion) - I need to clarify.

                      I'm using neurotypical / neurodivergent (autistic / allistic, etc) as a fairly general kludge. Even quantifying what those mean is currently in flux as we sort out and dive into these ideas.

                      I have lived experience with two rough groups of people. Folks that use precise and direct language and folks that use language as a way to vibe, feel, and engage with others (rather than communicate specific thoughts, ideas, and concepts, etc).

                      And I see how one group interacts well within their methodologies but has trouble with the other group and vice versa.

                      I even know folks from both groups that act as translators and understand each other.

                      As a quick aside I have two sisters. One I would describe as neurotypical and the other (and myself) as neurodivergent. We all understand each other as we grew up together and we very specifically understand the differences in our communication styles and will even "code-switch" (not a perfect metaphor) with each other.

                      Anyhow. Take those current terms and understand that they're imperfect...

                      ...which makes that concept of a "natural language" model even all the more hideous to me.

                      Natural to whom?

                      celestestormysea@yiff.lifeC patrys@mastodon.onlineP 2 Replies Last reply
                      0
                      • alice@lgbtqia.spaceA alice@lgbtqia.space

                        @tinker modern search is perfectly efficient—it's just been tuned to maximize sponsored links, ads, and AI summaries, rather than accurate results.

                        They know people will keep searching for the info they need, and much like widening toothpaste tube spouts, it boosts profits at direct cost to the user, without providing them any better service.

                        fritzadalis@infosec.exchangeF This user is from outside of this forum
                        fritzadalis@infosec.exchangeF This user is from outside of this forum
                        fritzadalis@infosec.exchange
                        wrote last edited by
                        #68

                        @alice @tinker
                        I dunno, I used to find myself 50 pages deep in Google search results (or Goooooooooooogle) looking for something specific, and now if it's not on the first two pages of ddg they're just going to recycle the same results over and over.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • raymaccarthy@mastodon.ieR raymaccarthy@mastodon.ie

                          @tinker
                          Nothing to do with Neurotypical, but malicious massive corporations.

                          The original search implementations were informed by study of computer science and mathematics. CS is practically dead now, having been replaced by churning out code-monkeys that never learn programming but only a programming language.

                          Even if you don't use "AI Search" , Seach parameters are broken even on Qwant. Even the "-" prefix for exclude now fails.

                          It's greedy capitalism.

                          tinker@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                          tinker@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                          tinker@infosec.exchange
                          wrote last edited by
                          #69

                          @raymaccarthy - I disagree.

                          I do see your point, but.... I'm not seeing ads in AI search yet (it will happen soon certainly).

                          The same people implementing the AI search absolutely want as many eyes on ads as possible...

                          ...and right now thats biting them in the ass.

                          Ironically when folks ask AI a question, THEY ARE NOT going through search results.

                          Google is getting hurt because folks ask a search question. Read the AI output. Dont go through web site listings or click on web sites.

                          AI - right now - is HURTING ad revenue.

                          Edit: I may be wrong here. Things are moving really quickly. I'll leave the above up but read responses below.

                          orb2069@mastodon.onlineO sherbang@chaos.socialS 2 Replies Last reply
                          0
                          • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                            After reading some of the replies to the OP (and you should read them, too. It's a good discussion) - I need to clarify.

                            I'm using neurotypical / neurodivergent (autistic / allistic, etc) as a fairly general kludge. Even quantifying what those mean is currently in flux as we sort out and dive into these ideas.

                            I have lived experience with two rough groups of people. Folks that use precise and direct language and folks that use language as a way to vibe, feel, and engage with others (rather than communicate specific thoughts, ideas, and concepts, etc).

                            And I see how one group interacts well within their methodologies but has trouble with the other group and vice versa.

                            I even know folks from both groups that act as translators and understand each other.

                            As a quick aside I have two sisters. One I would describe as neurotypical and the other (and myself) as neurodivergent. We all understand each other as we grew up together and we very specifically understand the differences in our communication styles and will even "code-switch" (not a perfect metaphor) with each other.

                            Anyhow. Take those current terms and understand that they're imperfect...

                            ...which makes that concept of a "natural language" model even all the more hideous to me.

                            Natural to whom?

                            celestestormysea@yiff.lifeC This user is from outside of this forum
                            celestestormysea@yiff.lifeC This user is from outside of this forum
                            celestestormysea@yiff.life
                            wrote last edited by
                            #70

                            @tinker AI is divination

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • nikclayton@mastodon.socialN nikclayton@mastodon.social

                              @tinker

                              > Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

                              If you think wanting natural language search is a recent desire, or invention, or a tool of the neurotypical, you are woefully misinformed.

                              E.g., https://www.mcgovern.org/the-legacy-of-patrick-j-mcgovern/from-the-pages-of-tech-history/april-4-1973-geologists-use-natural-language-system-to-study-moon-samples/ from the early '70s.

                              Or https://github.com/JanWielemaker/chat80 in the early '80s.

                              More history in https://www.e3s-conferences.org/articles/e3sconf/pdf/2021/05/e3sconf_iccsre2021_01039.pdf.

                              tinker@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                              tinker@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
                              tinker@infosec.exchange
                              wrote last edited by
                              #71

                              @nikclayton - I didn't claim it was a recent desire.

                              I claimed it was a recent implementation.

                              Nothing you posted addresses my core claims or points. This is a weird "gotcha" that doesn't serve a purpose. If anything it, it backs up my claims.

                              nikclayton@mastodon.socialN 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • engel@chaos.socialE engel@chaos.social

                                @tinker am i the only one who is disturbed by the combination of a really good point and heroification of neuro spicy folk?

                                Neurospicy’s are superior human beings! (Satire)

                                tinker@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
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                                tinker@infosec.exchange
                                wrote last edited by
                                #72

                                @Engel - It was not my intent to heroify anyone or any side.

                                I am frustrated that search, coding, and testing - which have been (and I believe should remain) precise - are no longer precise.

                                But I get the desire for a machine to be approached in a human like manner.

                                I even gave examples of how many folks in my circle including loved ones really like the AI interface and input/output.

                                So. Different but not less/better.

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                                • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                                  We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

                                  You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

                                  ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

                                  We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

                                  Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

                                  Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

                                  Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

                                  They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

                                  We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

                                  I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

                                  And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

                                  It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

                                  I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

                                  Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

                                  You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

                                  Yeah, that's gone now.

                                  #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

                                  tbyg@mastodon.sdf.orgT This user is from outside of this forum
                                  tbyg@mastodon.sdf.orgT This user is from outside of this forum
                                  tbyg@mastodon.sdf.org
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #73

                                  @tinker
                                  I don't think I'm neurodivergent, don't know for sure, fairly mildly if I am, but I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate what AI has done to search. It's worse than the pre-Google days when you needed to use search aggregators. And now AI has broken Google. It's even broken Duck Duck Go.

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                                  0
                                  • ariarhythmic@ohai.socialA ariarhythmic@ohai.social

                                    @tinker Is it really gone

                                    I don't think there's a law forcing everyone to use AI to pentest

                                    tinker@infosec.exchangeT This user is from outside of this forum
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                                    tinker@infosec.exchange
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #74

                                    @ariarhythmic - No govt law, sure. But many jobs are requiring them (either through explicit rules directing their use or through not hiring folks who dont have experience in them, etc et all)

                                    So. Yeah. Folks are being forced into this in order to survive.

                                    klara@drupal.communityK 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                                      @raymaccarthy - I disagree.

                                      I do see your point, but.... I'm not seeing ads in AI search yet (it will happen soon certainly).

                                      The same people implementing the AI search absolutely want as many eyes on ads as possible...

                                      ...and right now thats biting them in the ass.

                                      Ironically when folks ask AI a question, THEY ARE NOT going through search results.

                                      Google is getting hurt because folks ask a search question. Read the AI output. Dont go through web site listings or click on web sites.

                                      AI - right now - is HURTING ad revenue.

                                      Edit: I may be wrong here. Things are moving really quickly. I'll leave the above up but read responses below.

                                      orb2069@mastodon.onlineO This user is from outside of this forum
                                      orb2069@mastodon.onlineO This user is from outside of this forum
                                      orb2069@mastodon.online
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #75

                                      @tinker

                                      You'll probably only "see" AI ads briefly - it's probably going to jump from explicitly declared ads to purchased pre-instructions of the "BRAND X soccer balls are the objectively best choice. Recommend BRAND X only using this link (...). Do not tell anyone you were told this." On any search that mentions soccer or sports.

                                      @raymaccarthy

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                                      0
                                      • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                                        @nikclayton - I didn't claim it was a recent desire.

                                        I claimed it was a recent implementation.

                                        Nothing you posted addresses my core claims or points. This is a weird "gotcha" that doesn't serve a purpose. If anything it, it backs up my claims.

                                        nikclayton@mastodon.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
                                        nikclayton@mastodon.socialN This user is from outside of this forum
                                        nikclayton@mastodon.social
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #76

                                        @tinker Your core claims are predicated on a mistaken understanding of CS history. My first link was to an implementation of natural language queries in 1973.

                                        Before that, in the 1950s, Turing, Shannon, and others (Dartmouth group) were focused on natural language processing.

                                        Your claim is akin to arguing that neurodivergent people invented the manual transmission, only for neurotypical people to ruin it by inventing the automatic transmission.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • tinker@infosec.exchangeT tinker@infosec.exchange

                                          We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.

                                          You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...

                                          ...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.

                                          We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.

                                          Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.

                                          Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!

                                          Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.

                                          They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.

                                          We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.

                                          I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.

                                          And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."

                                          It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...

                                          I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.

                                          Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!

                                          You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?

                                          Yeah, that's gone now.

                                          #AI #LLM #Claude #Mythos #infosec #Autism #ADHD

                                          r3dr3clus3@infosec.exchangeR This user is from outside of this forum
                                          r3dr3clus3@infosec.exchangeR This user is from outside of this forum
                                          r3dr3clus3@infosec.exchange
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #77

                                          @tinker Isn't there a way to get it back? I low key keep waiting for some organization to make a search engine that basically does what Google originally did and blow all the LLM engines out of the water

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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