We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
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We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker i started to ask the search engine the way the most stupid person i can imagine would ask.
That helps sometimes and always fills me with a deep semse of loss and sadness. -
R relay@relay.mycrowd.ca shared this topic
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@tinker i get unreasonably upset when i try to use a search the way it was intended and get in response: “fuck you here is what we decided you should have searched for and also here are some slops”
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We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker@infosec.exchange I'm neurodivergent and I like both to be honest. The thought of being able to describe a really precise niche question and then shave off everything else with operators.
coming from someone who often usessite:*.eduand-site:stupidwebsite.com -
We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
> Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
If you think wanting natural language search is a recent desire, or invention, or a tool of the neurotypical, you are woefully misinformed.
E.g., https://www.mcgovern.org/the-legacy-of-patrick-j-mcgovern/from-the-pages-of-tech-history/april-4-1973-geologists-use-natural-language-system-to-study-moon-samples/ from the early '70s.
Or https://github.com/JanWielemaker/chat80 in the early '80s.
More history in https://www.e3s-conferences.org/articles/e3sconf/pdf/2021/05/e3sconf_iccsre2021_01039.pdf.
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We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker thank you, I feel seen
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We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
-
We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker I miss proper search syntax so much. There was a help page explaining it, an advanced form, and they even taught it in normie school...
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We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
After reading some of the replies to the OP (and you should read them, too. It's a good discussion) - I need to clarify.
I'm using neurotypical / neurodivergent (autistic / allistic, etc) as a fairly general kludge. Even quantifying what those mean is currently in flux as we sort out and dive into these ideas.
I have lived experience with two rough groups of people. Folks that use precise and direct language and folks that use language as a way to vibe, feel, and engage with others (rather than communicate specific thoughts, ideas, and concepts, etc).
And I see how one group interacts well within their methodologies but has trouble with the other group and vice versa.
I even know folks from both groups that act as translators and understand each other.
As a quick aside I have two sisters. One I would describe as neurotypical and the other (and myself) as neurodivergent. We all understand each other as we grew up together and we very specifically understand the differences in our communication styles and will even "code-switch" (not a perfect metaphor) with each other.
Anyhow. Take those current terms and understand that they're imperfect...
...which makes that concept of a "natural language" model even all the more hideous to me.
Natural to whom?
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@tinker modern search is perfectly efficient—it's just been tuned to maximize sponsored links, ads, and AI summaries, rather than accurate results.
They know people will keep searching for the info they need, and much like widening toothpaste tube spouts, it boosts profits at direct cost to the user, without providing them any better service.
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@tinker
Nothing to do with Neurotypical, but malicious massive corporations.The original search implementations were informed by study of computer science and mathematics. CS is practically dead now, having been replaced by churning out code-monkeys that never learn programming but only a programming language.
Even if you don't use "AI Search" , Seach parameters are broken even on Qwant. Even the "-" prefix for exclude now fails.
It's greedy capitalism.
@raymaccarthy - I disagree.
I do see your point, but.... I'm not seeing ads in AI search yet (it will happen soon certainly).
The same people implementing the AI search absolutely want as many eyes on ads as possible...
...and right now thats biting them in the ass.
Ironically when folks ask AI a question, THEY ARE NOT going through search results.
Google is getting hurt because folks ask a search question. Read the AI output. Dont go through web site listings or click on web sites.
AI - right now - is HURTING ad revenue.
Edit: I may be wrong here. Things are moving really quickly. I'll leave the above up but read responses below.
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After reading some of the replies to the OP (and you should read them, too. It's a good discussion) - I need to clarify.
I'm using neurotypical / neurodivergent (autistic / allistic, etc) as a fairly general kludge. Even quantifying what those mean is currently in flux as we sort out and dive into these ideas.
I have lived experience with two rough groups of people. Folks that use precise and direct language and folks that use language as a way to vibe, feel, and engage with others (rather than communicate specific thoughts, ideas, and concepts, etc).
And I see how one group interacts well within their methodologies but has trouble with the other group and vice versa.
I even know folks from both groups that act as translators and understand each other.
As a quick aside I have two sisters. One I would describe as neurotypical and the other (and myself) as neurodivergent. We all understand each other as we grew up together and we very specifically understand the differences in our communication styles and will even "code-switch" (not a perfect metaphor) with each other.
Anyhow. Take those current terms and understand that they're imperfect...
...which makes that concept of a "natural language" model even all the more hideous to me.
Natural to whom?
@tinker AI is divination
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> Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
If you think wanting natural language search is a recent desire, or invention, or a tool of the neurotypical, you are woefully misinformed.
E.g., https://www.mcgovern.org/the-legacy-of-patrick-j-mcgovern/from-the-pages-of-tech-history/april-4-1973-geologists-use-natural-language-system-to-study-moon-samples/ from the early '70s.
Or https://github.com/JanWielemaker/chat80 in the early '80s.
More history in https://www.e3s-conferences.org/articles/e3sconf/pdf/2021/05/e3sconf_iccsre2021_01039.pdf.
@nikclayton - I didn't claim it was a recent desire.
I claimed it was a recent implementation.
Nothing you posted addresses my core claims or points. This is a weird "gotcha" that doesn't serve a purpose. If anything it, it backs up my claims.
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@tinker am i the only one who is disturbed by the combination of a really good point and heroification of neuro spicy folk?
Neurospicy’s are superior human beings! (Satire)
@Engel - It was not my intent to heroify anyone or any side.
I am frustrated that search, coding, and testing - which have been (and I believe should remain) precise - are no longer precise.
But I get the desire for a machine to be approached in a human like manner.
I even gave examples of how many folks in my circle including loved ones really like the AI interface and input/output.
So. Different but not less/better.
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We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker
I don't think I'm neurodivergent, don't know for sure, fairly mildly if I am, but I hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate what AI has done to search. It's worse than the pre-Google days when you needed to use search aggregators. And now AI has broken Google. It's even broken Duck Duck Go. -
@tinker Is it really gone
I don't think there's a law forcing everyone to use AI to pentest
@ariarhythmic - No govt law, sure. But many jobs are requiring them (either through explicit rules directing their use or through not hiring folks who dont have experience in them, etc et all)
So. Yeah. Folks are being forced into this in order to survive.
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@raymaccarthy - I disagree.
I do see your point, but.... I'm not seeing ads in AI search yet (it will happen soon certainly).
The same people implementing the AI search absolutely want as many eyes on ads as possible...
...and right now thats biting them in the ass.
Ironically when folks ask AI a question, THEY ARE NOT going through search results.
Google is getting hurt because folks ask a search question. Read the AI output. Dont go through web site listings or click on web sites.
AI - right now - is HURTING ad revenue.
Edit: I may be wrong here. Things are moving really quickly. I'll leave the above up but read responses below.
You'll probably only "see" AI ads briefly - it's probably going to jump from explicitly declared ads to purchased pre-instructions of the "BRAND X soccer balls are the objectively best choice. Recommend BRAND X only using this link (...). Do not tell anyone you were told this." On any search that mentions soccer or sports.
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@nikclayton - I didn't claim it was a recent desire.
I claimed it was a recent implementation.
Nothing you posted addresses my core claims or points. This is a weird "gotcha" that doesn't serve a purpose. If anything it, it backs up my claims.
@tinker Your core claims are predicated on a mistaken understanding of CS history. My first link was to an implementation of natural language queries in 1973.
Before that, in the 1950s, Turing, Shannon, and others (Dartmouth group) were focused on natural language processing.
Your claim is akin to arguing that neurodivergent people invented the manual transmission, only for neurotypical people to ruin it by inventing the automatic transmission.
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We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker Isn't there a way to get it back? I low key keep waiting for some organization to make a search engine that basically does what Google originally did and blow all the LLM engines out of the water
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@tinker I sadly love your analogy with the double empaty problem, never saw it before, you nailed it so well.
#ActuallyAutistic (for those not knowing the actually means only that the author is autistic) #AuDHD
@adelinej @tinker
Yeah, I work in development and I am in great dispair, having lost all my colleagues. I thought I was part of a community that loved repeatable, deterministic, pragmatic things. These people are gone. They've drank the Kool-Aid.
I can see the cognitive surrendering happening.
It's bad. -
@tinker my kid's other mom asks chat gpt mental health questions apparently frequently, sometimes about our child. On the fediverse and in my lefty news podcasts I hear that people hate AI, but most people I know seem to be leaning on it for a lot. It's pretty concerning.
@sillyCoelophysis I called my health insurance company with a question about an online order form of theirs that wasn't working. The rep asked me "Do you use Chat GPT?" I said no. He said "Oh well, at least you use a computer." So knowing not to ask an LLM important questions makes me tech illiterate. Wanted to scream.
