English speakers of the fedi.
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@eltonfc and for some verbs imperative makes no sense to me at all.
Surely, when I click "rename file" the actual command is "present me with an input field to enter a new name"? I'm the one doing the renaming. The stupid piece of metal is just logging my actions to the best of its ability.
To me:
"Rename file [to a name I will provide]."
I wonder how much this has to do with growing up with command-line interfaces vs graphical ones.
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@eltonfc Depends to some degree - if the menu is hierarchical then non-leaf options or those leading to dialogues (usually marked with an ellipsis) are infinitive and leaf options without an ellipsis are imperative, to me.
Oh, that's very true. Or not even verbs. The "File" menu is a collection of commands which relate to file handling (open, close, etc.), not a command _to file_.
(Although it occurs to me that reading Edit as a verb may be how "Preferences" got stuck there in some standards, even though it doesn't have much to do with other Edit operations cut/copy/paste.)
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English speakers of the fedi. In a software with the interface in English, Reading a menu with verbs such as Save, Open, Close, Edit, Format etc., do you read them as imperative (an order: "do this") or as an infinitive (the "base form" of the verb, like "to do this")?
Are you a native speaker or have English as a second language?
#Dev #ux #ui #software #interface #translation #uiux #uxui #gui
@eltonfc Looking at my mail software right now, the "Compose" button is translated as "Opstellen" which would translate back as "to compose".
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R relay@relay.infosec.exchange shared this topic
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English speakers of the fedi. In a software with the interface in English, Reading a menu with verbs such as Save, Open, Close, Edit, Format etc., do you read them as imperative (an order: "do this") or as an infinitive (the "base form" of the verb, like "to do this")?
Are you a native speaker or have English as a second language?
#Dev #ux #ui #software #interface #translation #uiux #uxui #gui
@eltonfc Native speaker. I had a hard time answering this as neither seemed to fit quite right. If I am *reading* the menu, then infinitive seems closest if I know what I want to do and am just trying to find the right option to click. “I want to save”. If I am browsing the menu to see what’s available, “I can save” or “I am able to save”. When I click on the menu item, though, it is first person present tense: “I am saving”.
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English speakers of the fedi. In a software with the interface in English, Reading a menu with verbs such as Save, Open, Close, Edit, Format etc., do you read them as imperative (an order: "do this") or as an infinitive (the "base form" of the verb, like "to do this")?
Are you a native speaker or have English as a second language?
#Dev #ux #ui #software #interface #translation #uiux #uxui #gui
@eltonfc Native English speaker here, I consider them imperative because they historically are also called *commands* in this context. Less common examples are more illustrative of them being imperative, e.g. "Paste and go" in a browser, "to paste and to go" would not make sense.
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English speakers of the fedi. In a software with the interface in English, Reading a menu with verbs such as Save, Open, Close, Edit, Format etc., do you read them as imperative (an order: "do this") or as an infinitive (the "base form" of the verb, like "to do this")?
Are you a native speaker or have English as a second language?
#Dev #ux #ui #software #interface #translation #uiux #uxui #gui
@eltonfc I'm not a linguist but I'm pretty sure in English the infinitive form of save is literally "to save", so the idea that just "save" could be infinitive is confusing to me. And writing "to save" on a button seems like it wouldn't make any sense? I guess I don't really understand the question.
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English speakers of the fedi. In a software with the interface in English, Reading a menu with verbs such as Save, Open, Close, Edit, Format etc., do you read them as imperative (an order: "do this") or as an infinitive (the "base form" of the verb, like "to do this")?
Are you a native speaker or have English as a second language?
#Dev #ux #ui #software #interface #translation #uiux #uxui #gui
@eltonfc imperative, because when translated in Italian we use the imperative. Open becomes Apri and not Aprire. Save → Salva, not Salvare. Edit → Modifica, not Modificare and so on
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English speakers of the fedi. In a software with the interface in English, Reading a menu with verbs such as Save, Open, Close, Edit, Format etc., do you read them as imperative (an order: "do this") or as an infinitive (the "base form" of the verb, like "to do this")?
Are you a native speaker or have English as a second language?
#Dev #ux #ui #software #interface #translation #uiux #uxui #gui
@eltonfc It is interesting, I have never really thought of it. Swedish native speaker, and the infinite and imperative forms are (mostly) identical also in Swedish, so I haven't made the distinction.
But thinking of it, it's imperative, as I am commanding the machine to do something for me: "Open the (expletive) file".
As a software translator, I haven't thought of it either, but the imperative form comes naturally (and I follow the lead from other software as far as possible).
The biggest hurdle translating is when there are adjectives, as these are inflected by gender, so a menu item like "New" can have several forms in Swedish, and is often translated as "Create", which cannot.
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English speakers of the fedi. In a software with the interface in English, Reading a menu with verbs such as Save, Open, Close, Edit, Format etc., do you read them as imperative (an order: "do this") or as an infinitive (the "base form" of the verb, like "to do this")?
Are you a native speaker or have English as a second language?
#Dev #ux #ui #software #interface #translation #uiux #uxui #gui
"why is the software calling me a dolt?" https://folklore.org/Do_It.html
The 1992 mac hig doesn't address this directly but does label a button "Don't Save".
On the one hand, it can't be the infinitive since it doesn't have "to", but I had to look up what the "plain form" or "base form" of the verb is even called.
The 1992 hig calls them verbs or actions, which makes more sense than claiming that it really is imperative.
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@eltonfc I'm not a linguist but I'm pretty sure in English the infinitive form of save is literally "to save", so the idea that just "save" could be infinitive is confusing to me. And writing "to save" on a button seems like it wouldn't make any sense? I guess I don't really understand the question.
@williamoconnell examples of "save" being interpreted as infitive may be:
"[I want to] save [the file]"
"[I must] save [the file]"Of course, imperative is something like "Computer, save this file"
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@eltonfc It is interesting, I have never really thought of it. Swedish native speaker, and the infinite and imperative forms are (mostly) identical also in Swedish, so I haven't made the distinction.
But thinking of it, it's imperative, as I am commanding the machine to do something for me: "Open the (expletive) file".
As a software translator, I haven't thought of it either, but the imperative form comes naturally (and I follow the lead from other software as far as possible).
The biggest hurdle translating is when there are adjectives, as these are inflected by gender, so a menu item like "New" can have several forms in Swedish, and is often translated as "Create", which cannot.
@nafmo that's what inspired me to post this poll. When translating software to Portuguese, the verbs are translated in the infitive
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For me, that's very different. That's a mnemonic device — a list of things to not forget. Computer commands are "do this".
The high level commands, of course, cause complex functions to be run, but underneath it's all just sugar on top of instructions that are like: "Move the value in this memory buffer to that one. Now add 1 to the value in that buffer. Now compare that value to another buffer, and if it is equal, switch to this other set of instructions."
To me, menu items are like that.
_However_, interacting directly in a GUI is different. Like, typing into a word processor or drawing with a paint program. There, the metaphor takes over more. Feels more like I'm actively doing stuff, directly, rather than giving commands — even though it is just another interface to the same thing.
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English speakers of the fedi. In a software with the interface in English, Reading a menu with verbs such as Save, Open, Close, Edit, Format etc., do you read them as imperative (an order: "do this") or as an infinitive (the "base form" of the verb, like "to do this")?
Are you a native speaker or have English as a second language?
#Dev #ux #ui #software #interface #translation #uiux #uxui #gui
@eltonfc I had to think about this one. It’s a great question. Also interesting that some menu items that could be expressed with verbs are just nouns (“settings,” “font”…).
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@strypey @mattdm @virtulis @eltonfc
This is a really good point--I started out entirely in GUI environments and only a few years later started using CLIs. I do think about GUI buttons as infinitives and CLI as imperative (though, as a native speaker, the main reason why I think about the grammatical difference is because of taking second languages--perhaps the reason why I think the way I do is because la.wikipedia.org uses infinitives).
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Iff English is your second language, how are these verbs tusually translated to *your* language in software interfaces?
@eltonfc I don't understand the question. But in Swedish, the "Close" alternative would be "Stäng", which is an imperative. The infinitive would be "Stänga".
