English speakers of the fedi.

[jleedev@mastodon.sdf.org]

@eltonfc

"why is the software calling me a dolt?" https://folklore.org/Do_It.html

The 1992 mac hig doesn't address this directly but does label a button "Don't Save".

On the one hand, it can't be the infinitive since it doesn't have "to", but I had to look up what the "plain form" or "base form" of the verb is even called.

The 1992 hig calls them verbs or actions, which makes more sense than claiming that it really is imperative.

[mattdm@hachyderm.io]

@jleedev @virtulis @eltonfc

Yes, exactly.

[mattdm@hachyderm.io]

@virtulis @eltonfc

You mean, not from a menu?

Not sure I understand the question

[eltonfc@bertha.social]

@williamoconnell examples of "save" being interpreted as infitive may be:

"[I want to] save [the file]"
"[I must] save [the file]"

Of course, imperative is something like "Computer, save this file"

[virtulis@loud.computer]

@mattdm @eltonfc no, I mean if you take a piece of paper and write a list of things you need to do today, is that different from writing a command on the command line, and if yes, why

[eltonfc@bertha.social]

@nafmo that's what inspired me to post this poll. When translating software to Portuguese, the verbs are translated in the infitive

[mattdm@hachyderm.io]

@virtulis @eltonfc

For me, that's very different. That's a mnemonic device — a list of things to not forget. Computer commands are "do this".

The high level commands, of course, cause complex functions to be run, but underneath it's all just sugar on top of instructions that are like: "Move the value in this memory buffer to that one. Now add 1 to the value in that buffer. Now compare that value to another buffer, and if it is equal, switch to this other set of instructions."

To me, menu items are like that.

_However_, interacting directly in a GUI is different. Like, typing into a word processor or drawing with a paint program. There, the metaphor takes over more. Feels more like I'm actively doing stuff, directly, rather than giving commands — even though it is just another interface to the same thing.

[adamrice@c.im]

@eltonfc I had to think about this one. It’s a great question. Also interesting that some menu items that could be expressed with verbs are just nouns (“settings,” “font”…).

[musicologyhippo@hcommons.social]

@strypey @mattdm @virtulis @eltonfc

This is a really good point--I started out entirely in GUI environments and only a few years later started using CLIs. I do think about GUI buttons as infinitives and CLI as imperative (though, as a native speaker, the main reason why I think about the grammatical difference is because of taking second languages--perhaps the reason why I think the way I do is because la.wikipedia.org uses infinitives).

[jjj@functional.cafe]

@eltonfc I don't understand the question. But in Swedish, the "Close" alternative would be "Stäng", which is an imperative. The infinitive would be "Stänga".

[compfu@mograph.social]

@sarajw @eltonfc This poll was the first time I thought about this! How interesting. I read imperative „Save! Open!“ but in German it’s aways translated as infinitive. It would actually be really odd in a really fun way if those menu items were translated as commands. „Speichere!“
Oh, why not go for a royal order?
„So möge er denn speichern!“

[eltonfc@bertha.social]

@jjj what motivates de question is that in English, the infinitive and imperative forms are identical. In Portuguese, they are translated in the infinitive: "Fechar" instead of "Feche" or "Fecha"

[eltonfc@bertha.social]

@compfu @sarajw that raises a great question: do you treat the Computer as "du" or "Sie"?

[leo_wallentin@mastodon.social]

@eltonfc strong #4 (as e.g. an 'edit' menu will often contain not so much a list of things to edit, as a list of editing related features)

[tusharhero@mathstodon.xyz]

@eltonfc I have simply never used computer interfaces with my native language, so I can't say.

[williamoconnell@mas.to]

@eltonfc Interesting, I think I always thought of it as imperative, but I guess in other languages it would typically be localized to be the infinitive? As an English speaker the idea of writing something like "I want to save the file" on a UI sounds unnatural to me; as though you're just giving the computer information and it's going to make its own decision.

[jjj@functional.cafe]

@eltonfc I understand that. As I wrote it is the same in Swedish. I don't understand what you mean with how they are usually translated. That would depend on the original text, I can't say how often either is used in general.

[ylyej@mastodon.bahia.no]

@hobbs mds eu sempre entendi como infinitivo

[donutage@mastodon.social]

@eltonfc Interesting question! I can't say I'd ever really thought about the grammatical tense/mood of menu items before, but my gut says they read as imperatives (also, we call them "commands", right?). I know German, on the other hand, renders them as infinitives (although I guess those could also be interpreted as formal imperatives).

[leonardof@bertha.social]

@eltonfc Já vi esses verbos descritos como sendo imperativos (em diretriz de interface gráfica, provavelmente do GNOME, provavelmente não a atual), mas na minha cabeça é infinitivo. Infinitivo para eles seria "to make", não "make"