Replying to Uta Frith's views, one by one.
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Her view: Autism in women has gone too far.
Reply: Interesting. Has freedom in women gone too far, too?
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Her view: We must categorise autism into smaller subgroups.
Reply: Interesting also - a bit like how Hans Asperger did in Nazi Germany? I think, in this case, the purpose is to exclude a lot of people from the category "autism" and to divide the autistic community.
️@KatyElphinstone She's right that autism isn't just one thing, but I think C.L. Lynch said it best: it's a "collection of related neurological conditions that are so intertwined and so impossible to pick apart that professionals have stopped trying."
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@KatyElphinstone She's right that autism isn't just one thing, but I think C.L. Lynch said it best: it's a "collection of related neurological conditions that are so intertwined and so impossible to pick apart that professionals have stopped trying."
Nicely put
Autistic people are more heterogeneous within the group than non-autistics. I've been finding this really interesting!
We are more different from each other than neurotypical people are from one another. Even epigenetically, apparently. Which I think is quite cool
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@KatyElphinstone She's right that autism isn't just one thing, but I think C.L. Lynch said it best: it's a "collection of related neurological conditions that are so intertwined and so impossible to pick apart that professionals have stopped trying."
@KatyElphinstone Somehow to me the phrasing "collection of related neurological conditions that are so intertwined and so impossible to pick apart that professionals have stopped trying" could also be used to describe a personality, any personality really (including but not limited to those of dogs, cats, and birds).
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@KatyElphinstone @quidcumque @lizzard I'm not convinced that masking is wholely different from what NTs do to fit it. Some aspects are unique but a lot of it is just the amount and difficulty level.
@BernieDoesIt agree completely. The amount *is* what causes problems.
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@Fizzfizzpopop @SecondUniverse @KatyElphinstone I'd like a term that describes the neurotype based on its character, not that it is common. There are a lot of ways to say it's typical but they all say "neurosupremacy" to me.
@joshsusser @SecondUniverse @KatyElphinstone I don't know, I think average is not a term for anyone outstanding. Perhaps we should designate neuro average and neuro outstanding? Hehehe
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@joshsusser @SecondUniverse @KatyElphinstone I don't know, I think average is not a term for anyone outstanding. Perhaps we should designate neuro average and neuro outstanding? Hehehe
@joshsusser @SecondUniverse @KatyElphinstone I'll bagsi a self description as neuro outstanding, sometimes in a *good* way hahahaha
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@KatyElphinstone @quidcumque @lizzard I'm not convinced that masking is wholely different from what NTs do to fit it. Some aspects are unique but a lot of it is just the amount and difficulty level.
Yes, it's about the extent of it, and the impact on your life. How much of yourself do you have to hide just to get by? And how much effort does it take to do so?
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Yes, it's about the extent of it, and the impact on your life. How much of yourself do you have to hide just to get by? And how much effort does it take to do so?
@KatyElphinstone @quidcumque @lizzard That's more for some NTs than others but significantly more for NDs.
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Yes
It troubles me that so often they wheel out women to support the dominant paradigm, and essentially very patriarchal views & interests.
I think it's not a coincidence. It's just too convenient. I think they're being played. I never really want to attack the individual, just the views.
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@KatyElphinstone @Tooden @joshsusser @simondassow @adelinej neurofeely vs neurothinky?
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@KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej Uta #Frith was a coauthor, with Simon #BaronCohen, on the original 1985 paper introducing the hopelessly muddled "theory of mind" concept, the phlogiston of autism science. She certainly doesn't have any legitimate claim still to be taken seriously in 2026.
@KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej Oh, and: due to technical difficulties on this device, I couldn't actually see the Uta #Frith interview before. I just glanced through it on my desktop PC. It's even worse than I expected. I particularly noticed the following gem:
"This population is different. It is made up of a lot of adolescents, and among them, a lot of young women. These are people without intellectual impairment, who are perfectly able to communicate verbally and non-verbally, but who might feel highly anxious in social situations. They are perhaps characterised mainly by a sort of hypersensitivity."
This declaration shows such flagrant disregard not only of current scientific research on autism, but even of its early history all the way back to Hans #Asperger, that it’s hard to believe it was uttered in good faith. The misogynistic stereotyping is also remarkable, especially coming from a female scholar.
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@KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej Oh, and: due to technical difficulties on this device, I couldn't actually see the Uta #Frith interview before. I just glanced through it on my desktop PC. It's even worse than I expected. I particularly noticed the following gem:
"This population is different. It is made up of a lot of adolescents, and among them, a lot of young women. These are people without intellectual impairment, who are perfectly able to communicate verbally and non-verbally, but who might feel highly anxious in social situations. They are perhaps characterised mainly by a sort of hypersensitivity."
This declaration shows such flagrant disregard not only of current scientific research on autism, but even of its early history all the way back to Hans #Asperger, that it’s hard to believe it was uttered in good faith. The misogynistic stereotyping is also remarkable, especially coming from a female scholar.
@dedicto @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej
To be honest I couldn't even bring myself to open the original post. I just knew that it would be as bad as everyone has said.
There is a general trend amongst the old guard of researchers, even those who may have once done some good for our understanding. It's a kind of nose severally out of joint, only professionals know best arrogance and rejection of the progress that is being made. Mostly because so much of it is autistic and community led.
It is the closed mindset so typical of medical and research based communities especially. That won't listen to the true experts, those who daily experience something, and instead cling to the belief that taught knowledge, even if it is decades painfully out of date and which, of course they are the appointed and solely qualified guardians of, can only ever be the truth and any thing else can't. -
@dedicto @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej
To be honest I couldn't even bring myself to open the original post. I just knew that it would be as bad as everyone has said.
There is a general trend amongst the old guard of researchers, even those who may have once done some good for our understanding. It's a kind of nose severally out of joint, only professionals know best arrogance and rejection of the progress that is being made. Mostly because so much of it is autistic and community led.
It is the closed mindset so typical of medical and research based communities especially. That won't listen to the true experts, those who daily experience something, and instead cling to the belief that taught knowledge, even if it is decades painfully out of date and which, of course they are the appointed and solely qualified guardians of, can only ever be the truth and any thing else can't.@pathfinder @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej All true. And: I wasn't being flippant in alluding to the possibility of outright bad faith, as opposed to just garden-variety closed-mindedness. A while back I read the following blog post. It paints a disquieting picture of the behavior of Simon #BaronCohen — one that appears to involve reckless disregard at the very least. Unfortunately the post is old, and quite long, and the relevant material is toward the end, but it’s worth knowing about. In brief, it appears that he's capable of painting a nuanced, qualified picture in online dialogue with autistic advocates who might need cooling out — while continuing to make wild and irresponsible generalizations in published books for a mass audience.
Smith, Matthew [Yusuf]. Simon Baron-Cohen, autism, and empathy. Indigo Jo Blogs. 2011 June 29. Available from: https://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2011/06/29/simon-baron-cohen-autism-and-empathy.
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@pathfinder @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej All true. And: I wasn't being flippant in alluding to the possibility of outright bad faith, as opposed to just garden-variety closed-mindedness. A while back I read the following blog post. It paints a disquieting picture of the behavior of Simon #BaronCohen — one that appears to involve reckless disregard at the very least. Unfortunately the post is old, and quite long, and the relevant material is toward the end, but it’s worth knowing about. In brief, it appears that he's capable of painting a nuanced, qualified picture in online dialogue with autistic advocates who might need cooling out — while continuing to make wild and irresponsible generalizations in published books for a mass audience.
Smith, Matthew [Yusuf]. Simon Baron-Cohen, autism, and empathy. Indigo Jo Blogs. 2011 June 29. Available from: https://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog/mt.php/2011/06/29/simon-baron-cohen-autism-and-empathy.
@dedicto @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej
Why am I not surprised. That man has done more harm and set our cause and true understanding further back than anyone else. -
@Tooden @pathfinder @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej Yes. And until I read this blog post, and one or two others like it, I thought he just needed to be reasoned with. Despite having originated the #mindblindness nonsense, he has at least now spoken out against some of the cruder forms of it. But after reading these blog posts, it appears we're dealing with someone who will just say whatever serves his purposes at the moment, without regard to truth or consistency. And if so, THAT calls for a different approach. He needs to be exposed and discredited.
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@Tooden @pathfinder @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej Yes. And until I read this blog post, and one or two others like it, I thought he just needed to be reasoned with. Despite having originated the #mindblindness nonsense, he has at least now spoken out against some of the cruder forms of it. But after reading these blog posts, it appears we're dealing with someone who will just say whatever serves his purposes at the moment, without regard to truth or consistency. And if so, THAT calls for a different approach. He needs to be exposed and discredited.
@dedicto @Tooden @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej
Yep. The fact that he is still considered to be the foremost expert on autism, even after such classics as the extreme male brain and the lack of empathy and especially after he clung to them long after they had been thoroughly kicked to death by every measure, should have destroyed that long ago. But then the emphasis is still far more on them explaining and shedding light on us, than it is on listening and creating room for our understanding. -
@Tooden @pathfinder @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej More of "Every accusation is a confession". And it looks like Uta #Frith, her own gender to the contrary notwithstanding, has internalized #BaronCohen's misogyny. She paints "high-functioning" autistics as neurotic, introverted teenage girls!
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@dedicto @Tooden @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej
Yep. The fact that he is still considered to be the foremost expert on autism, even after such classics as the extreme male brain and the lack of empathy and especially after he clung to them long after they had been thoroughly kicked to death by every measure, should have destroyed that long ago. But then the emphasis is still far more on them explaining and shedding light on us, than it is on listening and creating room for our understanding.@pathfinder @dedicto @Tooden @KatyElphinstone @adelinej I inadvertently participated in a Si B-C study recently. They were recruiting intersex subjects. Working through their study (1) it was clear he wanted to use intersex people as a new angle on male brain / female brain, and (2) it tested for empathy and apparently I don't have any. I complained to their ethics board as I felt their recruitment process was deceptive.
