I bought a car.
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I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
@paco "You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account."
🥳🥳🥳🤪🤪🤪
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I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
@paco@infosec.exchange Err... um... ah... I think I agree with
️or some such. I have no idea if this is a corporate training issue, or a personal knowledge issue... -
I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
@paco er, why would you expect some magic solution from some overworked and underpaid first-line support person? Go and cut the cable if your new car (that I assume you chose?) is sending telemetry.
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@paco aaaaAAAAA
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I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
"Put me through to legal"
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@DamonHD AAAAAHH
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I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
If ordinary people don't even realize they're signing a contract, then the contract is arguably legally invalid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meeting_of_the_minds
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@paco Does the Rav4 have a modem? Like my Honda—it will pop up a privacy message every time I start the car, but it can’t actually send data anywhere on its own—it relies on your phone, and that in turn requires you to have installed their app. So I just never installed the app. Did have to yell at the dealer until they agreed to remove the aftermarket KARR device that had a GPS in it though.
My 2025 Subaru Forester evidently has its own WIFI connection. You can pay a monthly fee to use it. But if you don’t, the car still keeps communicating with its master. Delightful. First new car I’ve ever owned that I will ditch before 50k miles.
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@paco Time to figure out where the modems/antennas are and disable them (unplug, remove, cut…).
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If ordinary people don't even realize they're signing a contract, then the contract is arguably legally invalid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meeting_of_the_minds
Also, arbitration clauses in consumer-facing contracts are in my opinion unconscionable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscionability because I seriously doubt that most people understand that they're submitting to the jurisdiction of a blatantly-unfair kangaroo court with no right of appeal.
You're one of the very few who do understand what binding arbitration really means.
Unfortunately, courts do not, for the most part, agree with my opinion on this matter.
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@paco Agent lady, is this your first day on the internet???
@violenteastcoastcity @paco it must be a lady, right?
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I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
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@paco er, why would you expect some magic solution from some overworked and underpaid first-line support person? Go and cut the cable if your new car (that I assume you chose?) is sending telemetry.
@awfulwoman @paco
the notable factor here is not that they were unable to help, but that they had not even a hint of understanding that the fact that the compulsory agreeing to the terms & conditions nobody reads when they sign up to stuff, does in fact constitute a legal contract. -
@awfulwoman @paco
the notable factor here is not that they were unable to help, but that they had not even a hint of understanding that the fact that the compulsory agreeing to the terms & conditions nobody reads when they sign up to stuff, does in fact constitute a legal contract.@duckwhistle @paco why would they know? They’re first line support people. Just because YOU know doesn’t mean THEY know. Theory of Mind, mate.
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I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
@paco Ask for that in writing.
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I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
@paco @kotaro I had a similar exchange with an IKEA service worker. Whether I wanted to get money or a coupon for returning an item. Since I was intending on buying something after, I thought accepting a coupon made things easier for everyone.
The coupon will be sent to your e-mail address, it is a link you need to open and consent to a bunch of things.
Service worker assured me IKEA doesn’t do the tracking you consent to. I asked him how he knows, did he program it? He refunded me the money.
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@duckwhistle @paco why would they know? They’re first line support people. Just because YOU know doesn’t mean THEY know. Theory of Mind, mate.
@awfulwoman
But everybody who signs up for these services "should" know! The fact that most people don't seem to is an indictment of the schools system and education priorities, as well as evidence of corporations abusive relationship with their customer base.
If you maintain that its unrealistic to expect lay people to be aware that legally binding agreements are legally binding, that is an argument that all such contracts are unenforcible. -
I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
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@awfulwoman
But everybody who signs up for these services "should" know! The fact that most people don't seem to is an indictment of the schools system and education priorities, as well as evidence of corporations abusive relationship with their customer base.
If you maintain that its unrealistic to expect lay people to be aware that legally binding agreements are legally binding, that is an argument that all such contracts are unenforcible.@duckwhistle I’m saying that this person is talking to a bunch of poorly paid first-line support people and that these support people don’t give a shit. Please read what I said.
