I bought a car.
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I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
If ordinary people don't even realize they're signing a contract, then the contract is arguably legally invalid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meeting_of_the_minds
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@paco Does the Rav4 have a modem? Like my Honda—it will pop up a privacy message every time I start the car, but it can’t actually send data anywhere on its own—it relies on your phone, and that in turn requires you to have installed their app. So I just never installed the app. Did have to yell at the dealer until they agreed to remove the aftermarket KARR device that had a GPS in it though.
My 2025 Subaru Forester evidently has its own WIFI connection. You can pay a monthly fee to use it. But if you don’t, the car still keeps communicating with its master. Delightful. First new car I’ve ever owned that I will ditch before 50k miles.
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@paco Time to figure out where the modems/antennas are and disable them (unplug, remove, cut…).
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If ordinary people don't even realize they're signing a contract, then the contract is arguably legally invalid. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meeting_of_the_minds
Also, arbitration clauses in consumer-facing contracts are in my opinion unconscionable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscionability because I seriously doubt that most people understand that they're submitting to the jurisdiction of a blatantly-unfair kangaroo court with no right of appeal.
You're one of the very few who do understand what binding arbitration really means.
Unfortunately, courts do not, for the most part, agree with my opinion on this matter.
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@paco Agent lady, is this your first day on the internet???
@violenteastcoastcity @paco it must be a lady, right?
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I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
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@paco er, why would you expect some magic solution from some overworked and underpaid first-line support person? Go and cut the cable if your new car (that I assume you chose?) is sending telemetry.
@awfulwoman @paco
the notable factor here is not that they were unable to help, but that they had not even a hint of understanding that the fact that the compulsory agreeing to the terms & conditions nobody reads when they sign up to stuff, does in fact constitute a legal contract. -
@awfulwoman @paco
the notable factor here is not that they were unable to help, but that they had not even a hint of understanding that the fact that the compulsory agreeing to the terms & conditions nobody reads when they sign up to stuff, does in fact constitute a legal contract.@duckwhistle @paco why would they know? They’re first line support people. Just because YOU know doesn’t mean THEY know. Theory of Mind, mate.
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I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
@paco Ask for that in writing.
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I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
@paco @kotaro I had a similar exchange with an IKEA service worker. Whether I wanted to get money or a coupon for returning an item. Since I was intending on buying something after, I thought accepting a coupon made things easier for everyone.
The coupon will be sent to your e-mail address, it is a link you need to open and consent to a bunch of things.
Service worker assured me IKEA doesn’t do the tracking you consent to. I asked him how he knows, did he program it? He refunded me the money.
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@duckwhistle @paco why would they know? They’re first line support people. Just because YOU know doesn’t mean THEY know. Theory of Mind, mate.
@awfulwoman
But everybody who signs up for these services "should" know! The fact that most people don't seem to is an indictment of the schools system and education priorities, as well as evidence of corporations abusive relationship with their customer base.
If you maintain that its unrealistic to expect lay people to be aware that legally binding agreements are legally binding, that is an argument that all such contracts are unenforcible. -
I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
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@awfulwoman
But everybody who signs up for these services "should" know! The fact that most people don't seem to is an indictment of the schools system and education priorities, as well as evidence of corporations abusive relationship with their customer base.
If you maintain that its unrealistic to expect lay people to be aware that legally binding agreements are legally binding, that is an argument that all such contracts are unenforcible.@duckwhistle I’m saying that this person is talking to a bunch of poorly paid first-line support people and that these support people don’t give a shit. Please read what I said.
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I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
@paco I have once met a guy that drove an old car from the 60s/70s.
He told he would never drive a car he couldn' t repair on his own and is stuffed with electronics.
Fair enough.
We all agree, that petrol engines are not sustainable, but maybe there is a little more, why they push us to buy newer and electr(on)ic cars.
SIM cards are there now for around a decade and they tell us just for positioning, in case your car breaks down, or got stolen.
Tell me lies tell me sweet little lies
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@paco I bought a used Kia Soul EV. No doubt Kia are taking its every move but I haven't registered it with them or enabled the Kia app so I hope they can't track me personally. However, as it was bought from a used car place not a Kia dealer I had it serviced and checked over by an official dealer before the warranty ran out. So I suppose they might have notified Kia HQ about the new owner?
@pthane @paco Why don't you ask Kia, rather than strangers on the internet? Send them a DSAR. #11.1.1
Kia UK Privacy Policy
Kia's privacy policy information on collection, use and disclosure of personal identifiable information online and offline.
(www.kia.com)
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@duckwhistle I’m saying that this person is talking to a bunch of poorly paid first-line support people and that these support people don’t give a shit. Please read what I said.
@awfulwoman
"people don't give a shit" is hardly an astute observation.
I'm saying that people not giving a shit about stuff like this is bad for them, bad for you, and bad for me. It's bad for the rule of law and thus civilization in general, so calling it out like this shows how fucked our society is
If you don't think that's relevant to you congratulations, you're part of the problem. -
I bought a car. I’m trying to get Toyota to stop sending telemetry. I call support. They tell me I can just sign in with the app and make changes.
I point out that installing and using the app binds me to terms and conditions, one of which is binding arbitration. So I will not be installing the app.
No, no. The customer service agent confidently contradicts me. You don’t sign a contract by installing the app. It’s just like making a Facebook or google account.
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@paco Wow. I'm team toyota, but that's ridiculous. And for the agent to not understand that no, you absolutely DO sign a contract when you make ANY account.... yikes.
@violenteastcoastcity @paco Lawyers complicate everything. My gut feel is that the "contract" or any terms and conditions are barely enforceable.
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I’m looking into it. I know a couple things for sure. Data collection is opt-out, the modem is buried deep inside the dashboard (so a huge PITA to get) and the phone microphone runs through the DCM (data communications module). For $70 I can get a bypass harness that you put in place of the DCM. It’s just wires with the right connectors and it keeps a few things connected (like the microphone) that would be disconnected by simply removing the DCM.
What I am uncertain about is how to get to the DCM. For a lot of cars (RAV4, Camry) there are published instructions. I’m not afraid, but I won’t do it without instructions.
Also, the symbol on the screen that indicates DCM is not working is already indicating that. When I spoke to the folks in customer service, they did some stuff on their end. So I’m not sure if it’s transmitting or not. I do know that it can. It probably is. But the icon suggests it is not.
Finally there are lots of extra stupid things. If I disconnect the DCM, the cars GPS stops working. That’s fine. But then my iPhone, when connected to the car, will use the broken signals from the cars broken GPS, and then it won’t know where it is! Also, I have to connect CarPlay by wire, not wireless. If I connect by wireless, the car will use the phone to transmit its telemetry!
What a massive PITA!
