"Is Mastodon becoming an echo chamber?"
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"Is Mastodon becoming an echo chamber?"
I dunno. What even is 'Mastodon' in this conversation?
I'm on dice.camp because I like their moderation & federation decisions. If you're on a different instance, how "echo-y" your "echo chamber" is may vary.
But if you don't like it when people are picky about who they associate with & how, just go hang out on mastodon.social or whatever.
@artemis Thank you for this whole thread; you've managed to articulate my feelings on the "echo chamber" post better than I could.
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R relay@relay.mycrowd.ca shared this topic
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Calling us bigots for not welcoming enemy propagandists is fucking rich.
so the "main character" is rehashing the same old tired fucking liberal centrist big-brained argument with the usual side of DARVO.
i'm so fucking tired of these people. can we build something yet? i'm so fucking tired.
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"Is Mastodon becoming an echo chamber?"
I dunno. What even is 'Mastodon' in this conversation?
I'm on dice.camp because I like their moderation & federation decisions. If you're on a different instance, how "echo-y" your "echo chamber" is may vary.
But if you don't like it when people are picky about who they associate with & how, just go hang out on mastodon.social or whatever.
@artemis Sometimes I wish it could be a bit more lively...to be honest, it took me a while to stop missing all the knee-jerk contention from near strangers after dealing with that for literal years(Probably a decade if you count my time on Daily Kos and stuff like that.) It seems like there is too fine a line though from "Occasional passionate debate" to "Listening to nutbags always" so I guess I'll deal with my own thoughts, even when I don't love them...
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@artemis Thank you for this whole thread; you've managed to articulate my feelings on the "echo chamber" post better than I could.
@dubious_dragon @artemis I am happier to be writing stuff again and all of that, but I also think there's another myth there--that I wish I could b a party to-- that food tastes better and I'm never angry at people I don't know anymore and hearing my own voice fills me with such love that I don't hate my neighbor's right-wing t-shirts...It's not THAT great.
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@artemis It's telling, to me, that these people view someone not wanting to interact with them as a consequence of their behaviour the same as not wanting to interact with someone due to skin tone.
To my cynical and generally people-hating brain it strikes me as the mindset of someone who thinks skin tone is somehow related to morality/rightness.
(idk maybe I'm reaching, and I'm not explaining it well, but my brain sees the line from AI-shills bitching about tolerance to white supremacy)
@MsHearthWitch @artemis you're right, it isn't much of a stretch. Which makes it all the more irony-rich that in order to try to make their argument more palatable they threw in "obviously we should defed from nazis, of course" when the foundation of the ai industry is absolutely chock full of fascists, ones with global reach like Musk and Thiel, and the ai tools promote fascist ideas and goals by their nature.
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They have to frame it as a diversity issue because they want to distract from the fact that it is a *consent* issue!
Not wanting to associate with Black people is bigotry, but not wanting to associate with AI-shills is just protecting your peace. These are not the goddamn same, & it's really sinister asking people to pretend they are.
It is weird to insist people should HAVE to interact with you, regardless of your behavior. It shows a lack of respect for people's agency & choice.
Please check out https://stopgenai.com
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Calling us bigots for not welcoming enemy propagandists is fucking rich.
@artemis I didn't follow whatever triggered the current echo chamber discussion, but recently somebody asked for a good instance for a (vulnerable) friend, and some reply guy had to go and tell them he believes we shouldn't create spaces that explicitly protect others from people like him. >_<;
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@artemis I would argue that "AI" is a fundamentally anti-human technology.
They stole literally every piece of text and audio and video on the internet that *people* created, without consent or compensation, and used it to create machine that replace humans.And therefore, I do not have *any* respect for people promoting or using it. Not even the basic respect that every human deserves, because they are actively promoting the replacement of humans with machines.
They are enemies of mankind.
"And therefore, I do not have *any* respect for people promoting or using it. Not even the basic respect that every human deserves"
Would agree with your toot but not these cc'ed sentences, which I'd rephrase to sth like this:
"I do not have *any* respect for the *persons* promoting or using it and have deep contempt for them. I only respect them as human beings in the sense I won't actively physically harm them."
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They have to frame it as a diversity issue because they want to distract from the fact that it is a *consent* issue!
Not wanting to associate with Black people is bigotry, but not wanting to associate with AI-shills is just protecting your peace. These are not the goddamn same, & it's really sinister asking people to pretend they are.
It is weird to insist people should HAVE to interact with you, regardless of your behavior. It shows a lack of respect for people's agency & choice.
I'm no expert on any of this but I'm thinking about
1. What's the difference between a real-life cafe that doesn't welcome brown people, marxists, women, muslim people .... and a mastodon instance that doesn't?
Is an instance more like someone's home, and so they have control over who can enter?
2. Are instances "public spaces" or "public squares" with the associated rights that we have and don't have eg privacy, as well as obligations not to hurt others?
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"And therefore, I do not have *any* respect for people promoting or using it. Not even the basic respect that every human deserves"
Would agree with your toot but not these cc'ed sentences, which I'd rephrase to sth like this:
"I do not have *any* respect for the *persons* promoting or using it and have deep contempt for them. I only respect them as human beings in the sense I won't actively physically harm them."
@proscience @artemis I understand your disagreement on this point.
And I'm fine to agree to disagree in that part.But with all the damage I have seen already, I see people using and promoting AI on the same level as an alien invasion force trying to enslave or erase mankind.
They are destroying not only the environment, but eroding our very sense of reality itself. We have already reached the point where you can't believe anything anymore. The very foundation of society has been destroyed
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@proscience @artemis I understand your disagreement on this point.
And I'm fine to agree to disagree in that part.But with all the damage I have seen already, I see people using and promoting AI on the same level as an alien invasion force trying to enslave or erase mankind.
They are destroying not only the environment, but eroding our very sense of reality itself. We have already reached the point where you can't believe anything anymore. The very foundation of society has been destroyed
Although I grant them a tad more human rights, I entirely subscribe to the many drastically negative consequences you listed. I'd further distinguish the originators like Thiel, Karp and their fascistic ilk, the many fascistic donors of their pursuit and the many fascistic politicians eager to deliver for them from those many customers who're too naive (and/or ignorant) to see through.
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Although I grant them a tad more human rights, I entirely subscribe to the many drastically negative consequences you listed. I'd further distinguish the originators like Thiel, Karp and their fascistic ilk, the many fascistic donors of their pursuit and the many fascistic politicians eager to deliver for them from those many customers who're too naive (and/or ignorant) to see through.
@proscience @artemis I would like to add one point: being a user/proponent of AI isn't a life sentence. They can choose to stop destroying mankind and the world at any time.
And I don't think they are all beyond redemption.
Maybe that clarification makes my stance a bit more palatable. -
But seriously, I am pretty sure there are corners of Fedi where AI boosters are totally welcome.
That's the thing about Fedi.
But it's possible instances where AI boosting is welcome & encouraged may find themselves defederated from instances that don't promote AI slop & blocked by users who don't want to see that shit in their timeline.
And that's what they are complaining about. They are complaining that they don't get to insist on being in your timeline & in your mentions.
@artemis Reportedly, The Forkiverse.
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It's interesting how important it is to some people that you supposedly shouldn't be choosey about who you associate with.
The person I saw talking about this framed the "problem" of AI-shills being "unwelcome" on Fedi (not sure I buy that either—they seem to have their own corners of Fedi) as the same thing as Black users being harassed/unsafe/not included, which is just absurd.
It's very "blue lives matter" coded, ya know? Like, being a techbro is not an inherent part of who you are.
Agreed. Perhaps I could amplify that point for any bystanders who aren't yet convinced?
If I'm Black, or disabled, or a woman, or neurodivergent, or gay, or trans, or any of a hundred other things, then that's a fundamental part of my identity. I didn't choose it. I can't change it. Anyone who refuses to talk to me because of that characteristic is intolerant. Allowing me to participate as an equal in Fedi makes the place more diverse.
Conversely, if I argue in favour of AI, that's not an immutable part of my identity: it's something I choose to do at present. I can always change my mind later, or just talk about something else. And it's perfectly legitimate for people not to want to engage with me on that subject, just as I choose not to engage with people who talk a lot about sports, because the subject bores me.
One of these things is intolerance; the other is just curating one's Fedi feed. It's deeply misleading for people to blur the difference between the two.
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"Is Mastodon becoming an echo chamber?"
I dunno. What even is 'Mastodon' in this conversation?
I'm on dice.camp because I like their moderation & federation decisions. If you're on a different instance, how "echo-y" your "echo chamber" is may vary.
But if you don't like it when people are picky about who they associate with & how, just go hang out on mastodon.social or whatever.
@artemis@dice.camp
I mean Mastodon.social is quite picky about people criticising israel, for one.
Which I think seems to line up with the interests of a lot of people who yell about echo chambers though, so perhaps I should've stayed quiet -
@artemis I would argue that "AI" is a fundamentally anti-human technology.
They stole literally every piece of text and audio and video on the internet that *people* created, without consent or compensation, and used it to create machine that replace humans.And therefore, I do not have *any* respect for people promoting or using it. Not even the basic respect that every human deserves, because they are actively promoting the replacement of humans with machines.
They are enemies of mankind.
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It's interesting how important it is to some people that you supposedly shouldn't be choosey about who you associate with.
The person I saw talking about this framed the "problem" of AI-shills being "unwelcome" on Fedi (not sure I buy that either—they seem to have their own corners of Fedi) as the same thing as Black users being harassed/unsafe/not included, which is just absurd.
It's very "blue lives matter" coded, ya know? Like, being a techbro is not an inherent part of who you are.
@artemis
Shocker that the Venn diagram of AI shills and racists is two concentric circles. -
They have to frame it as a diversity issue because they want to distract from the fact that it is a *consent* issue!
Not wanting to associate with Black people is bigotry, but not wanting to associate with AI-shills is just protecting your peace. These are not the goddamn same, & it's really sinister asking people to pretend they are.
It is weird to insist people should HAVE to interact with you, regardless of your behavior. It shows a lack of respect for people's agency & choice.
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I thought a big part of the value of Fedi is how much choice we have over who we associate with.
Why is it a bad thing that people who are choosey about their online experience don't want to listen to AI-shills?
@artemis The Fediverse shows the fatal weakness of what is traditionally called "anarchism". People simply don't understand what "federated" means or what decentralization is or how to use it. They don't understand that here you set your own boundaries which are no one else's business and that everyone else can do the same too. Here anyone can talk to anyone, everyone or one person if they want to. No one is going to force anything on them.
Yet still they go around policing people as if they were on X/Twitter or some centralized, corporate platform when the freedom to act for themselves had been placed in their hands.
Has anyone got a problem with who someone talks to? Disconnect yourself from them and make further contact impossible! Simple as that!
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"Is Mastodon becoming an echo chamber?"
I dunno. What even is 'Mastodon' in this conversation?
I'm on dice.camp because I like their moderation & federation decisions. If you're on a different instance, how "echo-y" your "echo chamber" is may vary.
But if you don't like it when people are picky about who they associate with & how, just go hang out on mastodon.social or whatever.
RE: https://dice.camp/@artemis/116358342154325909
@artemis "[...] if you don't like it when people are picky about who they associate with & how [...]"
This is 100% on the money for me.
I feel like some of the vocal folks about #echochamber miss the fact that not everybody might like their social network as a mall of some loud prophets, but rather as bazaars or pubs - fine community garnerings come in many forms, after all.
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B britt@mstdn.games shared this topic
