Replying to Uta Frith's views, one by one.
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@KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej Uta #Frith was a coauthor, with Simon #BaronCohen, on the original 1985 paper introducing the hopelessly muddled "theory of mind" concept, the phlogiston of autism science. She certainly doesn't have any legitimate claim still to be taken seriously in 2026.
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@joshsusser @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej This is sort of why I started calling it neuroconvergent instead of neurotypical after reading the Double Empathy paper.
@simondassow @joshsusser @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej neuroconvergent
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@KatyElphinstone I think the problem is "theory of mind" is a poetic term. It resonates with researchers. It SHOULD mean something. It attracts emotional engagement. But it doesn't mean anything specific.
@SecondUniverse @KatyElphinstone i wish a had a mind to base a theory on /j
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@SecondUniverse @KatyElphinstone @adelinej Why do these highly-educated academics always get Theory of Mind wrong? ToM is not the ability to read minds. It is the awareness that other individuals have their own thoughts and perceptions that will be different from your own, not the ability to know what those are.
@joshsusser @SecondUniverse @KatyElphinstone @adelinej i am able to read minds, it works like wifi /j
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Its hard to set reasonable expectations…
I do see what you're saying. Yes. And that must be hard actually. I was disadvantaged at school, but not like that.
Hm I guess, regarding this, I think it may be time to support people with what they need in the ways that they need it? That is, the support should centre around their needs, and not round their diagnosis.
I think her commentary is designed to be divisive... which is exactly what it's doing
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I do see what you're saying. Yes. And that must be hard actually. I was disadvantaged at school, but not like that.
Hm I guess, regarding this, I think it may be time to support people with what they need in the ways that they need it? That is, the support should centre around their needs, and not round their diagnosis.
I think her commentary is designed to be divisive... which is exactly what it's doing
PS and just to say good on you for saying this... I realise that might have taken some courage in the context.
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@SecondUniverse @KatyElphinstone i wish a had a mind to base a theory on /j
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I do see what you're saying. Yes. And that must be hard actually. I was disadvantaged at school, but not like that.
Hm I guess, regarding this, I think it may be time to support people with what they need in the ways that they need it? That is, the support should centre around their needs, and not round their diagnosis.
I think her commentary is designed to be divisive... which is exactly what it's doing
I agree. I think the frustration is being born out of people needing help and not getting it. And I have been waiting for help for a long time after graduating from special ed and not getting autistic specific help.
can’t even really be independent. If my partner left me I would pretty much starve.
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PS and just to say good on you for saying this... I realise that might have taken some courage in the context.
Ok here is a concrete example of personal trouble.
I call places… trying to get help for autism. The services don’t serve my age group, my functioning level (either they want high or low functioning not between and spikey profile), or my government (medicaid) insurance.
If I call some place seeking help for ADHD, the same doesn’t happen.
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Ok here is a concrete example of personal trouble.
I call places… trying to get help for autism. The services don’t serve my age group, my functioning level (either they want high or low functioning not between and spikey profile), or my government (medicaid) insurance.
If I call some place seeking help for ADHD, the same doesn’t happen.
So like how functional can a label really be if when you call for help for it… To help literally isn’t even there. And also the government probably can’t even measure that the help for you isn’t there because it’s all got the same label.
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So like how functional can a label really be if when you call for help for it… To help literally isn’t even there. And also the government probably can’t even measure that the help for you isn’t there because it’s all got the same label.
It was easy by comparison to get help for the ADHD part. Oh I just need to get diagnosed with a Neuro psychiatrist with multiple eight hour long appointments and it’s really hard to get? So much easier than trying to get the actual intense help that I’m looking for for autism for an adult…
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I agree. I think the frustration is being born out of people needing help and not getting it. And I have been waiting for help for a long time after graduating from special ed and not getting autistic specific help.
can’t even really be independent. If my partner left me I would pretty much starve.
Shit yes.
It's the kind of denial of existence of autistic adults, isn't it... Which is what the whole 'treatment and cures' paradigm actively supports.
All that billion dollar research @panda talks about in their blog.
Wouldn't it be nice if you could see a little bit of that billions of dollars?
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So like how functional can a label really be if when you call for help for it… To help literally isn’t even there. And also the government probably can’t even measure that the help for you isn’t there because it’s all got the same label.
It's a good point
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The label doesn't really function anyway!My feeling is the world is set up wrong.
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It's a good point
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The label doesn't really function anyway!My feeling is the world is set up wrong.
I have felt this too! Which is a really common feeling with all of us. XD
I like symptom labels and this is what I have tried and this is what I haven’t.
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It was easy by comparison to get help for the ADHD part. Oh I just need to get diagnosed with a Neuro psychiatrist with multiple eight hour long appointments and it’s really hard to get? So much easier than trying to get the actual intense help that I’m looking for for autism for an adult…
I got the autism label when I wasn’t looking for it at the neuropsych btw… which means I am not someone who decided they were autistic before someone else… then I told people… they were shocked I wasn’t diagnosed….
Im really obviously according to even people I hardly know. -
I have felt this too! Which is a really common feeling with all of us. XD
I like symptom labels and this is what I have tried and this is what I haven’t.
Which is anyway much more useful information in health and mental health support settings
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Absolutely!
I'm in the middle of a really interesting book by Paul Bloom called 'Against Empathy' which talks quite a bit about the concepts - theory of mind, and so-called 'cognitive empathy' (which I had also found issue with, and mentioned in my article about empathy).
@KatyElphinstone i'm putting that book on my (very long) reading list, thank you.
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@KatyElphinstone I think the problem is "theory of mind" is a poetic term. It resonates with researchers. It SHOULD mean something. It attracts emotional engagement. But it doesn't mean anything specific.
@SecondUniverse @KatyElphinstone I think the allistic/neurotypical* struggle with Theory of Mind reveals something of their neurotype's fundamental nature. My take is they are good at inferring another's emotional state from non-verbal signals, and from that they believe they can effectively read minds and know what other people really think. (Perhaps this is why the Telepathy Tapes nonsense caught on - they think mind reading is a real thing.) So it's easy for them to think ToM is about knowing *what* someone else is thinking, rather than knowing they are thinking their own thoughts that are different from yours.
*: there's no better word for the actual neurotype that usually gets called neurotypical or allistic. we need a better Venn diagram!
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@joshsusser @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej This is sort of why I started calling it neuroconvergent instead of neurotypical after reading the Double Empathy paper.
@simondassow @joshsusser @KatyElphinstone @SecondUniverse @adelinej NT and autistic do seem to be strange attractors in neurotype space.
