Framework listens to their audience so much that they send another pre-release laptop to DHH.
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@smilingdemon @soapdog @Foxboron @alatiera yes, in this case, it would, and I agree and I wish they would.
There is the reality though that the FOSS ecosystem is FULL of people like DHH, DHH just happens to be very famous. "Just don't engage with bad people" is hard in this ecosystem.
My take is, we're holding good actors to high standards, bad actors (dell etc) to low standards, leaving good actors to face risk of disqualification and putting selection pressure in favor of bad actors.
@smilingdemon @soapdog @Foxboron @alatiera I mean until very recently Linus Torvalds himself was an absolutely morally repugnant and verbally abusive individual.
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@smilingdemon @soapdog @Foxboron @alatiera yes, in this case, it would, and I agree and I wish they would.
There is the reality though that the FOSS ecosystem is FULL of people like DHH, DHH just happens to be very famous. "Just don't engage with bad people" is hard in this ecosystem.
My take is, we're holding good actors to high standards, bad actors (dell etc) to low standards, leaving good actors to face risk of disqualification and putting selection pressure in favor of bad actors.
@komali_2 @smilingdemon @Foxboron @alatiera
it is impossible to clear FOSS of bad actors, but the problem is bad actors with large platforms and what to do when we learn they are bad actors.
Linus behaviour is also shitty, but I am yet to see Linus being a transphone or saying London should be more white.
We're just asking something very simple, stop platforming DHH. They won't lose a single sale from it.
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@soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
They send laptops to all the other main distros and DEs, and their 5k/year donation to Arch is functionally a direct payment to the trans community lol. They also donate thousands to debian, cachy, bazzite, nix, the bsds, kde, etc. They don't send any money directly to omarchy, unlike these other DEs and distros.
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@komali_2 @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
again, that normalisation of fascism is dangerous.
They can make sure it runs with Omarchy. They don't need to platform DHH, he is a fascist. Being a maintainer doesn't offload that.
Treating fascists well because they happen to be productive fascists is not good enough.
@soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera Right, this isn't the first time we've been here though. You can't participate in FOSS without gnu tooling, and yet plausible sex pest Stallman is reinstated to the FSF. OpenBSD still refuses to have a code of conduct. The linux kernel mail list was a verbally abusive hell hole until recently. Dtrace still used, and Cantrill still around, despite never really addressing his controversies.
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@soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera Right, this isn't the first time we've been here though. You can't participate in FOSS without gnu tooling, and yet plausible sex pest Stallman is reinstated to the FSF. OpenBSD still refuses to have a code of conduct. The linux kernel mail list was a verbally abusive hell hole until recently. Dtrace still used, and Cantrill still around, despite never really addressing his controversies.
@komali_2 @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera I am all in favour of throwing stallman into the bin as well.
You understand that quoting other bad actors, doesn't excuse DHH.
I want them all gone. Did Framework sent Stallman a laptop? I didn't see that. They sent one for DHH and that is what I am complaining about
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@soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera Right, this isn't the first time we've been here though. You can't participate in FOSS without gnu tooling, and yet plausible sex pest Stallman is reinstated to the FSF. OpenBSD still refuses to have a code of conduct. The linux kernel mail list was a verbally abusive hell hole until recently. Dtrace still used, and Cantrill still around, despite never really addressing his controversies.
@soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera To be clear I'm not arguing for treating DHH well, merely that it's not feasible to detach from all the bad actors.
I hope they do detach from DHH, but, when they do, because the community holds "good" actors to a higher standard, there will be another controversy to take its place - most likely hyprland will again come under high scrutiny. Or its support of OpenBSD. Something.
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@soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera To be clear I'm not arguing for treating DHH well, merely that it's not feasible to detach from all the bad actors.
I hope they do detach from DHH, but, when they do, because the community holds "good" actors to a higher standard, there will be another controversy to take its place - most likely hyprland will again come under high scrutiny. Or its support of OpenBSD. Something.
@komali_2 @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
you seem to think that because we can't detach all bad actors that we simply shouldn't call them out or detach from the ones that are easier.
It is easier to deplatform DHH. They can simply not send a laptop.
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@komali_2 @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera I am all in favour of throwing stallman into the bin as well.
You understand that quoting other bad actors, doesn't excuse DHH.
I want them all gone. Did Framework sent Stallman a laptop? I didn't see that. They sent one for DHH and that is what I am complaining about
@soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera Right, "all gone," that's my point, it isn't really possible. That would have to include openbsd, gnome (support for AWS which supports the IDF, an existent fascist threat and genocidal entity), hyprland.
I don't think this strategy leads to creating safer communities, I think it just puts selective pressure against good actors in favor of bad ones.
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@komali_2 @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
you seem to think that because we can't detach all bad actors that we simply shouldn't call them out or detach from the ones that are easier.
It is easier to deplatform DHH. They can simply not send a laptop.
@soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
Again, I hope they don't send him another one, but my point is, we would probably still be having this conversation if they hadn't, we'd simply be discussing either hyprland or openbsd.
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@soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
Again, I hope they don't send him another one, but my point is, we would probably still be having this conversation if they hadn't, we'd simply be discussing either hyprland or openbsd.
@komali_2 @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
well, can you tell me what about OpenBSD we'd be talking? Not disputing curious because I am not aware of them being fascists..
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@komali_2 @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
well, can you tell me what about OpenBSD we'd be talking? Not disputing curious because I am not aware of them being fascists..
@soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera first, to prove my point lol: https://tech.lgbt/@GeopJr/116448764001798373
second, openbsd refuses to have a code of conduct for the usual eye-roll reasons
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@soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera first, to prove my point lol: https://tech.lgbt/@GeopJr/116448764001798373
second, openbsd refuses to have a code of conduct for the usual eye-roll reasons
@komali_2 that is shitty. I agree, but those problems are not the same, I hope you understand.
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@komali_2 that is shitty. I agree, but those problems are not the same, I hope you understand.
@soapdog@toot.cafeAs an antifascist, I tend to focus in on it as well.
Another thing I'm thinking is that we're engaging in proximity-based moral reasoning and letting others get away with diffuse complicity. We say, "just don't send a laptop to DHH, and if they do, just don't buy framework," but you'd probably think it's unreasonable to say "just don't use AWS (who hosts the IDF), and if you find someone that does use it, just don't use that service."
Thus, selective pressure against good actors.
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@alatiera argh, how oblivious can these people be? With all the backlash and everything, I hoped they learned something.
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R relay@relay.mycrowd.ca shared this topic
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@alatiera argh, how oblivious can these people be? With all the backlash and everything, I hoped they learned something.
@soapdog @alatiera To be absolutely fucking clear, they are not oblivious. They are intentionally signalling the far right community. Omarchy is just a set of configs, no special hardware support required. It's a complete waste of resources to donate anything to DHH. Sending it to the Arch team would indirectly support Omarchy.
This is about making it clear who they support in general.
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@soapdog @alatiera they do send out to other distros, and given Ormachy wasn't on the list they said they had sent pre-relase laptops too. I therefore suspect they had intended for this to go under the radar which is even worse. Not only have they not actually listened, the lesson they seem to have learned is "just don't let people know". It's all so sad and frustrating and oh so easily avoidable by Framework.
@smilingdemon @soapdog @alatiera Omarchy isn't even a distro, it's just some confs. There is zero reason to send them hardware.
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@soapdog @komali_2 @smilingdemon @alatiera
I pointed out how their track record recently has been better, you said no.
@Foxboron @soapdog @komali_2 @smilingdemon @alatiera They gave 24,000€ to DHH's Ruby World. There is not attempt to be better on their part.
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@Foxboron @soapdog @komali_2 @smilingdemon @alatiera They gave 24,000€ to DHH's Ruby World. There is not attempt to be better on their part.
@reflex @Foxboron @soapdog @smilingdemon @alatiera Do you mean railsworld? They got a booth, and it's a conference sponsorship, not a donation - they get advertising in return. They went to other conferences as well, and spent more on them.
DHH gets no income from railsworld.
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@reflex @Foxboron @soapdog @smilingdemon @alatiera Do you mean railsworld? They got a booth, and it's a conference sponsorship, not a donation - they get advertising in return. They went to other conferences as well, and spent more on them.
DHH gets no income from railsworld.
@komali_2 @Foxboron @soapdog @smilingdemon @alatiera Rails World was literally created to undermine the existing Rails conference after they enforced their CoC policy and it excluded DHH. He created this one explicitly to take back control.
Framework supported that effort explicitly, and were one of the largest donors. They are VERY committed to keeping Nazis in control of technology.
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@Foxboron @soapdog @komali_2 @smilingdemon @alatiera They gave 24,000€ to DHH's Ruby World. There is not attempt to be better on their part.
@reflex
To my knowledge that was disclosed as part of the original thread? So I don't quite see how it's relevant to my current statement?
