The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
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Like, no exaggeration, those boys would yell at each other that they'd punish each other in the name of the Moon. Yes, they hid behind a layer of jokes, but it was hilarious and kinda cool that they had little regard for toxic masculinity. A rare thing for little boys.
I felt I couldn't watch that anime even though I wanted to. It was one hundred percent my fear of being not perceived as a boy, even though from the behaviour of "other" boys, it was demonstrably untrue.
On a deeper level I think I wanted to do more girl-coded things, but I didn't know why and so I reacted with even more fear.
As to the conversion camp aspect? Yeah, and it starts very early. And is not even conscious. I watched a video once of parents encouraging their toddler (I think? It may've actually been babies, even) kids to play with a truck or a doll and the kid very clearly wanting to play with the "wrong" toy. Then the researcher (because it was part of some sort of behavioural study) would ask the parent why they had been trying to steer their son or daughter to the specific toys, and the parent would say with some surprise "I didn't realise I was doing that until you brought it up".
The bias runs deep.
Being not the most socially perceptive kid I would notice people (boys and men) being disgusted with and rejecting things for being girly so I just assumed those things were bad.
Bad for everyone. I remember a boy being teased for having little flowers on his tie at a church service so I was very annoyed when my mom wanted me to wear flower prints.
"no it's lovely and you are being very rude. Your grandmother bought this dress for you!"
"It's covered in disgusting pink flowers!" -
Being not the most socially perceptive kid I would notice people (boys and men) being disgusted with and rejecting things for being girly so I just assumed those things were bad.
Bad for everyone. I remember a boy being teased for having little flowers on his tie at a church service so I was very annoyed when my mom wanted me to wear flower prints.
"no it's lovely and you are being very rude. Your grandmother bought this dress for you!"
"It's covered in disgusting pink flowers!"Why should I, a little girl delight in things that boys hated so much?
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Mass hysteria.
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@futurebird given "it's all projection" does that mean these conservatives have no values of their own, they just follow some leader?
That sounds like such a mean accusation. But I kind of wonder.
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If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird I think that the structure of religious indoctrination is consistently misunderstood on the left.
Specifically, hypocrisy and intellectual incoherence is a tool to separate "us" from "them", and is a positive feature on the right.
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@futurebird I think that the structure of religious indoctrination is consistently misunderstood on the left.
Specifically, hypocrisy and intellectual incoherence is a tool to separate "us" from "them", and is a positive feature on the right.
Saying and believing things is a loyalty test; this is why the right goes on missionary expeditions. It is not to get converts (though that's fine too) but to separate "us" from "them". To show our young people that the others are wrong, and reject you personally for your beliefs.
That keeps the next generation from questioning.
The point is creating contrast with "them", the out-group that is inherently wrong and evil.
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We know it's not natural from the existence of trans people.
I was terrified of doing stuff "for girls" as a kid AND I WAS A GIRL. It was only after coming out as trans in my thirties that I find "girly" activities and aesthetics affirming.
In Elementary School, I was much more scared of watching Sailor Moon than the cis boys who were my classmates. I instinctively knew I had more to lose, socially.
This is actually a large part, I think, of why patriarchy fears trans people so much. We expose that gendered rules of behaviour are nonsensical.
And we can't have that, can we.
@oddtail @futurebird I (a women, as cisgender as can be l, but autistic) had so much internalized hate on women growing up, and only realized it really really late. I've been working for the last ten years to let go of it, but the need to distance myself from the more feminine-coded women sits really deep.
It's partly trauma from trying hard and never succeeding at fitting in. But it's also the early realization, that women are just worth less in our society.
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I don't think this revulsion is just natural, it's a high effort system done intentionally to keep women in our place. If a little boy thinks the pink toy is just as nice for him as the more masculine army green toys... well the whole world may fall into disorder.
Cats and dogs living together and all of that.
@futurebird
History education neglected to teach that trans people have existed throughout time and were accepted in many societies. Mendelian genetics did not cover the 32 potential human combinations. Author, Jan Morris, was perhaps my 1st introduction and a favorite travel writer. She transitioned in ‘72(?). -
If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird Left wingers tend to almost unfailingly see it. The problem is sometimes they make up the connection where none exists.
Except sometimes we later find out it is real and then that becomes part of the overall and disjointed narrative of resistance.
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Sometimes I think some of the things we consider "normal" for childhood are basically conversion camp. Like teaching boys to fear being called "like a girl" as the worst possible insult. Of course (if you are a guy) you don't want someone to say you are a girl, that's not who you are.
But the dread and horror of such insults is kind of unnatural. It can be traumatic. *Every* man I know has a traumatic memory of doing something "for girls" by accident and getting attacked and humiliated for it.
@futurebird And conversely (from the perspective of a "tomboy" growing up in the 60s), girls were shamed for being boyish, but there was an undercurrent of "it's understandable that you'd want to be a boy, but you can't, so cut it out." Cf. characters like Scout in To Kill a Mockingbird and Anybodys in the original West Side Story.
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The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
The inability of conservatives to imagine that people have left wing values, or might be gay just... naturally that training and leadership aren't needed or wanted is both hilarious and disturbing.
Trans people can't just exist, someone, some organization is making them trans!
It will all in tears. The only question is whose tears.
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System shared this topic
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Sometimes I think some of the things we consider "normal" for childhood are basically conversion camp. Like teaching boys to fear being called "like a girl" as the worst possible insult. Of course (if you are a guy) you don't want someone to say you are a girl, that's not who you are.
But the dread and horror of such insults is kind of unnatural. It can be traumatic. *Every* man I know has a traumatic memory of doing something "for girls" by accident and getting attacked and humiliated for it.
@futurebird I have traumatic experiences of doing "girl stuff" as a kid by choice because I like it and getting shit for it.
️the denial and masking arc that followed was not really great for anybody
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@futurebird given "it's all projection" does that mean these conservatives have no values of their own, they just follow some leader?
@spz @futurebird yeah they be submissive lillte sluts who want a powerful (sometimes orange) daddy to tell them what to do and how to behave. thinking for themselves makes their brain hurt, it's just easier to be a social sub
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The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
The inability of conservatives to imagine that people have left wing values, or might be gay just... naturally that training and leadership aren't needed or wanted is both hilarious and disturbing.
Trans people can't just exist, someone, some organization is making them trans!
It will all in tears. The only question is whose tears.
@futurebird I'm in the middle on migrating from a search engine to another because of declining quality of results, so I wasn't too happy when a search on "Dorthy" didn't yield anything substantially relevant to your post. Although the search string "Dorthy gay" eventually gave me the answer I was looking for in the form of the "Friend of Dorothy" slang term. -
If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
What does it mean to be trans if there is no wall between genders to cross?
I mean you're still you, but you didn't have to go anywhere to get there. You'll be sessile, not trans.
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The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
The inability of conservatives to imagine that people have left wing values, or might be gay just... naturally that training and leadership aren't needed or wanted is both hilarious and disturbing.
Trans people can't just exist, someone, some organization is making them trans!
It will all in tears. The only question is whose tears.
@futurebird They don''t even know what "Left" means (nor "conservative" either, for that matter)
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@oddtail @futurebird I (a women, as cisgender as can be l, but autistic) had so much internalized hate on women growing up, and only realized it really really late. I've been working for the last ten years to let go of it, but the need to distance myself from the more feminine-coded women sits really deep.
It's partly trauma from trying hard and never succeeding at fitting in. But it's also the early realization, that women are just worth less in our society.
That might also have been when and where you grew up. The 80s and 90s were pretty anti-girl in the US.
This is why Buffy and Powerpuff girls were so big I think, they were the female equivalent of the male antihero.
But on the surface they had to be a joke, it was just too unsettling at the time to actually have women be valuable.
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I don't think this revulsion is just natural, it's a high effort system done intentionally to keep women in our place. If a little boy thinks the pink toy is just as nice for him as the more masculine army green toys... well the whole world may fall into disorder.
Cats and dogs living together and all of that.
@futurebird it is interesting that I keep hearing about cats and dogs recently.
The immigrants are eating cats and dogs.
The Iranian government officials are infighting like cats and dogs.
Boys talking with girls is cats and dogs living together.
Idk maybe when trump is pissing he's so mighty and powerful that it's raining cats and dogs in his toilet bowl. -
@futurebird Left wingers tend to almost unfailingly see it. The problem is sometimes they make up the connection where none exists.
Except sometimes we later find out it is real and then that becomes part of the overall and disjointed narrative of resistance.
@futurebird
I'm surprised by the question, since as @InkySchwartz says, the left is hyper-sensitive to control systems. Minimizing those is our raison d’être.The responses by @willyyam, @huxley, & @infryq are also confusing. These are all examples of "irrational" behavior done to support hierarchy. Surely everyone knows (both left & right) why it's being done.
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If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
I have thought about this a lot recently, as part of my self-exit-counselling from cult propaganda. One thing I think most people (across the board) don't know about, is how indoctrination works and how to undo that damage, for oneself and others. Including others who might not want to be de-indoctrinated, like right wingers.
One thing is, attacking their beliefs, ideologies or leaders, no matter how wrong, absurd or laughable they are, will send people DEEPER into the clutches of those forces.
That's counter intuitive because most of us probably have experiences like that "don't be girly" stuff, where something we liked was attacked and we stopped liking it or at least expressing that.
But right wing, fascist and other extremists operate like cults. And they often indoctrinate members so that attacks strengthen their worldview. For example via a persecution complex.
Another thing people on the left, in my experience, don't understand is that good (or at least not-inherently-evil) people can be manipulated and abused into becoming right wing footsoldiers. That doesn't excuse the harm they're doing, but it could open up avenues of intervention. That's just theoretical for me though, but something I'm interested in because of my own history.
