The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
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If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird
I think the left fails to see that there doesn't have to be a hierarchy and control system for the right to do bad things that benefit them to the detriment of the majority. For instance, there doesn't have to be a conspiracy in place for Putin to meddle in elections in other countries to benefit candidates who are sympathetic to him. He'll be doing it anyway. -
Sometimes I think some of the things we consider "normal" for childhood are basically conversion camp. Like teaching boys to fear being called "like a girl" as the worst possible insult. Of course (if you are a guy) you don't want someone to say you are a girl, that's not who you are.
But the dread and horror of such insults is kind of unnatural. It can be traumatic. *Every* man I know has a traumatic memory of doing something "for girls" by accident and getting attacked and humiliated for it.
Even if you don't do it to your own children, others will do it for you.
"Don't be such a baby"
"Big boys don't cry"
It's endemic. And harmful to all of us.Just to add to your "Every" man thing:
as a boy, I'd seen the adverts for "Action Man" on TV.
I asked for one for Christmas.
I was quietly taken to one side by my father, who explained to me that he didn't want any son of his playing with dolls. -
Sometimes I think some of the things we consider "normal" for childhood are basically conversion camp. Like teaching boys to fear being called "like a girl" as the worst possible insult. Of course (if you are a guy) you don't want someone to say you are a girl, that's not who you are.
But the dread and horror of such insults is kind of unnatural. It can be traumatic. *Every* man I know has a traumatic memory of doing something "for girls" by accident and getting attacked and humiliated for it.
@futurebird As the former elementary school student who chose the flute as his school band instrument, I concur.
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We know it's not natural from the existence of trans people.
I was terrified of doing stuff "for girls" as a kid AND I WAS A GIRL. It was only after coming out as trans in my thirties that I find "girly" activities and aesthetics affirming.
In Elementary School, I was much more scared of watching Sailor Moon than the cis boys who were my classmates. I instinctively knew I had more to lose, socially.
This is actually a large part, I think, of why patriarchy fears trans people so much. We expose that gendered rules of behaviour are nonsensical.
And we can't have that, can we.
Like, no exaggeration, those boys would yell at each other that they'd punish each other in the name of the Moon. Yes, they hid behind a layer of jokes, but it was hilarious and kinda cool that they had little regard for toxic masculinity. A rare thing for little boys.
I felt I couldn't watch that anime even though I wanted to. It was one hundred percent my fear of being not perceived as a boy, even though from the behaviour of "other" boys, it was demonstrably untrue.
On a deeper level I think I wanted to do more girl-coded things, but I didn't know why and so I reacted with even more fear.
As to the conversion camp aspect? Yeah, and it starts very early. And is not even conscious. I watched a video once of parents encouraging their toddler (I think? It may've actually been babies, even) kids to play with a truck or a doll and the kid very clearly wanting to play with the "wrong" toy. Then the researcher (because it was part of some sort of behavioural study) would ask the parent why they had been trying to steer their son or daughter to the specific toys, and the parent would say with some surprise "I didn't realise I was doing that until you brought it up".
The bias runs deep.
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Sometimes I think some of the things we consider "normal" for childhood are basically conversion camp. Like teaching boys to fear being called "like a girl" as the worst possible insult. Of course (if you are a guy) you don't want someone to say you are a girl, that's not who you are.
But the dread and horror of such insults is kind of unnatural. It can be traumatic. *Every* man I know has a traumatic memory of doing something "for girls" by accident and getting attacked and humiliated for it.
@futurebird My memories of being attacked for doing something "for girls" are all that I pitied the person attacking me for not knowing that girls and boys can be interested in the same things. Sometimes being a bit neuro-different, as I guess I must be, helps, as I didn't learn to be traumatised by those shaming attempts and never even worried that I wasn't.
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@futurebird Huh. I genuinely don't recall that ever being a thing in my life any more than "spastic" (which was the casual insult of choice when I was a child, a generation earlier it would have been "bleeder").
(I'm not saying it didn't happen, it's quite possible I didn't notice!)
Which is possibly how I managed to have the joyous experience of reading a Georgette Heyer paperback on the Underground, while wearing a webbing jacket and being generally Large and Male, and watching people's minds go "ping".@RogerBW @futurebird I think it depnds on how lucky you got with the classmate randomizer really.. Personally, I think sadism is an outlet for frustrated kids who don't know better, and whatever crap will stick is what they'll choose. And for sure, there are consequences to that choice, but ultimately it's just whatever was to hand in the moment.
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The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
The inability of conservatives to imagine that people have left wing values, or might be gay just... naturally that training and leadership aren't needed or wanted is both hilarious and disturbing.
Trans people can't just exist, someone, some organization is making them trans!
It will all in tears. The only question is whose tears.
@futurebird ...Didn't some believe the "pussy hat" protests had to be astroturfed by someone who produced said hats ahead of time in a factory, because they don't know about knitting/crochet and that a lot of women could produce a lot of quite simple hats quickly?
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@futurebird ...Didn't some believe the "pussy hat" protests had to be astroturfed by someone who produced said hats ahead of time in a factory, because they don't know about knitting/crochet and that a lot of women could produce a lot of quite simple hats quickly?
If we astroturfed ideas they would be better ideas. LMAO
I'm going to be looking for an opportunity to use the word "astroterf" now. And I don't mean a grouchy British lady in space.
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I don't think this revulsion is just natural, it's a high effort system done intentionally to keep women in our place. If a little boy thinks the pink toy is just as nice for him as the more masculine army green toys... well the whole world may fall into disorder.
Cats and dogs living together and all of that.
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Like, no exaggeration, those boys would yell at each other that they'd punish each other in the name of the Moon. Yes, they hid behind a layer of jokes, but it was hilarious and kinda cool that they had little regard for toxic masculinity. A rare thing for little boys.
I felt I couldn't watch that anime even though I wanted to. It was one hundred percent my fear of being not perceived as a boy, even though from the behaviour of "other" boys, it was demonstrably untrue.
On a deeper level I think I wanted to do more girl-coded things, but I didn't know why and so I reacted with even more fear.
As to the conversion camp aspect? Yeah, and it starts very early. And is not even conscious. I watched a video once of parents encouraging their toddler (I think? It may've actually been babies, even) kids to play with a truck or a doll and the kid very clearly wanting to play with the "wrong" toy. Then the researcher (because it was part of some sort of behavioural study) would ask the parent why they had been trying to steer their son or daughter to the specific toys, and the parent would say with some surprise "I didn't realise I was doing that until you brought it up".
The bias runs deep.
Being not the most socially perceptive kid I would notice people (boys and men) being disgusted with and rejecting things for being girly so I just assumed those things were bad.
Bad for everyone. I remember a boy being teased for having little flowers on his tie at a church service so I was very annoyed when my mom wanted me to wear flower prints.
"no it's lovely and you are being very rude. Your grandmother bought this dress for you!"
"It's covered in disgusting pink flowers!" -
Being not the most socially perceptive kid I would notice people (boys and men) being disgusted with and rejecting things for being girly so I just assumed those things were bad.
Bad for everyone. I remember a boy being teased for having little flowers on his tie at a church service so I was very annoyed when my mom wanted me to wear flower prints.
"no it's lovely and you are being very rude. Your grandmother bought this dress for you!"
"It's covered in disgusting pink flowers!"Why should I, a little girl delight in things that boys hated so much?
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Mass hysteria.
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@futurebird given "it's all projection" does that mean these conservatives have no values of their own, they just follow some leader?
That sounds like such a mean accusation. But I kind of wonder.
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If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird I think that the structure of religious indoctrination is consistently misunderstood on the left.
Specifically, hypocrisy and intellectual incoherence is a tool to separate "us" from "them", and is a positive feature on the right.
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@futurebird I think that the structure of religious indoctrination is consistently misunderstood on the left.
Specifically, hypocrisy and intellectual incoherence is a tool to separate "us" from "them", and is a positive feature on the right.
Saying and believing things is a loyalty test; this is why the right goes on missionary expeditions. It is not to get converts (though that's fine too) but to separate "us" from "them". To show our young people that the others are wrong, and reject you personally for your beliefs.
That keeps the next generation from questioning.
The point is creating contrast with "them", the out-group that is inherently wrong and evil.
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We know it's not natural from the existence of trans people.
I was terrified of doing stuff "for girls" as a kid AND I WAS A GIRL. It was only after coming out as trans in my thirties that I find "girly" activities and aesthetics affirming.
In Elementary School, I was much more scared of watching Sailor Moon than the cis boys who were my classmates. I instinctively knew I had more to lose, socially.
This is actually a large part, I think, of why patriarchy fears trans people so much. We expose that gendered rules of behaviour are nonsensical.
And we can't have that, can we.
@oddtail @futurebird I (a women, as cisgender as can be l, but autistic) had so much internalized hate on women growing up, and only realized it really really late. I've been working for the last ten years to let go of it, but the need to distance myself from the more feminine-coded women sits really deep.
It's partly trauma from trying hard and never succeeding at fitting in. But it's also the early realization, that women are just worth less in our society.
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I don't think this revulsion is just natural, it's a high effort system done intentionally to keep women in our place. If a little boy thinks the pink toy is just as nice for him as the more masculine army green toys... well the whole world may fall into disorder.
Cats and dogs living together and all of that.
@futurebird
History education neglected to teach that trans people have existed throughout time and were accepted in many societies. Mendelian genetics did not cover the 32 potential human combinations. Author, Jan Morris, was perhaps my 1st introduction and a favorite travel writer. She transitioned in ‘72(?). -
If the conservative imagination struggles with human behaviors that exist without command or hierarchy could it be that the left wing mind fails to see rigid structures of indoctrination used by the right?
In other words is there an inverse and equally clumsy version of this error?
@futurebird Left wingers tend to almost unfailingly see it. The problem is sometimes they make up the connection where none exists.
Except sometimes we later find out it is real and then that becomes part of the overall and disjointed narrative of resistance.
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Sometimes I think some of the things we consider "normal" for childhood are basically conversion camp. Like teaching boys to fear being called "like a girl" as the worst possible insult. Of course (if you are a guy) you don't want someone to say you are a girl, that's not who you are.
But the dread and horror of such insults is kind of unnatural. It can be traumatic. *Every* man I know has a traumatic memory of doing something "for girls" by accident and getting attacked and humiliated for it.
@futurebird And conversely (from the perspective of a "tomboy" growing up in the 60s), girls were shamed for being boyish, but there was an undercurrent of "it's understandable that you'd want to be a boy, but you can't, so cut it out." Cf. characters like Scout in To Kill a Mockingbird and Anybodys in the original West Side Story.
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The US government hunting for the Leader of Antifa is like when they hunted for "Dorthy" the leader all of the gay men in the military and perhaps the world.
The inability of conservatives to imagine that people have left wing values, or might be gay just... naturally that training and leadership aren't needed or wanted is both hilarious and disturbing.
Trans people can't just exist, someone, some organization is making them trans!
It will all in tears. The only question is whose tears.
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