Does anyone have a screepcap or link saved of the interaction about a decade ago when a trans girl on reddit asked an adult cis man how often he thought about being a girl and his answer was something like "I dont think ive ever thought about that".
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@JoscelynTransient I don't know if I got my point across at all, but I want to express my gratitude anyway. Because I can see that your response is meant to be encouraging, and it certainly is kind.
What I want to get across, though, is something else entirely. I guess it's more like this question whether turquoise is a shade of green, or a shade of blue.
There's evidence that this distinction is largely *cultural*. In some cultures it is strongly associated with one, in others with the other.
@JoscelynTransient How I feel about myself is very similar to turquoise.
Cishet folk assume I'm cishet, trans folk may want me to be trans simply because I am not obviously cishet.
I don't feel a need to be in either category.
Now the screenshotted post above, that's a little more on the side of one interpretation, but holding on to the other. I get the reactions folk had on this thread.
I just... want to urge you to also consider that turquoise is turquoise, not green/blue.
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@JoscelynTransient How I feel about myself is very similar to turquoise.
Cishet folk assume I'm cishet, trans folk may want me to be trans simply because I am not obviously cishet.
I don't feel a need to be in either category.
Now the screenshotted post above, that's a little more on the side of one interpretation, but holding on to the other. I get the reactions folk had on this thread.
I just... want to urge you to also consider that turquoise is turquoise, not green/blue.
@JoscelynTransient I won't be offended if you consider it green or blue, mind you. I just want to carve a space for turquoise being fine just being turqouise, away from all that green/blue distinction, if that makes sense.
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@JoscelynTransient I don't know if I got my point across at all, but I want to express my gratitude anyway. Because I can see that your response is meant to be encouraging, and it certainly is kind.
What I want to get across, though, is something else entirely. I guess it's more like this question whether turquoise is a shade of green, or a shade of blue.
There's evidence that this distinction is largely *cultural*. In some cultures it is strongly associated with one, in others with the other.
@jens gender diversity definitely is something that is different culture to culture, for sure! In some cultures, they have 3, 4, or even more genders. Some of these look similar to what people today would call trans men and trans women, but some don’t. Transness is just a way of understanding some of this based on how things are in Western countries where we were forced to think there is only one way to be a man and one way to be a woman. My wife for example, a Filipina, identifies both as a Bakla and a trans woman because her identity is primarily rooted in her culture.
And the metaphor of turquoise is great! Maybe some people are sky blue and some are pastel pink, but some are dark blue or neon pink or purple or turquoise or yellow and off the spectrum altogether. Some people are told they are blue and discover they are actually purple or pink or maybe even just a different shade of blue. And the words we use are just ways of trying to identify and describe parts of the spectrum to understand what each other are talking about.
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@jens gender diversity definitely is something that is different culture to culture, for sure! In some cultures, they have 3, 4, or even more genders. Some of these look similar to what people today would call trans men and trans women, but some don’t. Transness is just a way of understanding some of this based on how things are in Western countries where we were forced to think there is only one way to be a man and one way to be a woman. My wife for example, a Filipina, identifies both as a Bakla and a trans woman because her identity is primarily rooted in her culture.
And the metaphor of turquoise is great! Maybe some people are sky blue and some are pastel pink, but some are dark blue or neon pink or purple or turquoise or yellow and off the spectrum altogether. Some people are told they are blue and discover they are actually purple or pink or maybe even just a different shade of blue. And the words we use are just ways of trying to identify and describe parts of the spectrum to understand what each other are talking about.
@jens I think a lot of us would be happy to support you as turquoise
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@jens I think a lot of us would be happy to support you as turquoise
@JoscelynTransient THAT I got, and I'm very happy about. That's why I don't want to push back to the point of arguing, either.
Anyway, I hijacked this enough. Thank you for your thoughts!
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@JoscelynTransient I won't be offended if you consider it green or blue, mind you. I just want to carve a space for turquoise being fine just being turqouise, away from all that green/blue distinction, if that makes sense.
@jens it's like, people are so busy deciding whether the turquoise paint fits in the drawer with the blues or the greens, they forget that that's not what art is about.
Every shade is its own thing. Every person is their own person. Paint is for painting and life is for living.
@JoscelynTransient -
@jens it's like, people are so busy deciding whether the turquoise paint fits in the drawer with the blues or the greens, they forget that that's not what art is about.
Every shade is its own thing. Every person is their own person. Paint is for painting and life is for living.
@JoscelynTransient@Tattie I don't think that was so much the case here, but that would be the extreme, yes.
I run into this issue a fair bit. I have an urge to categorize, and I think it's generally a human urge. In my case, it may even be stronger, because autism makes it uncomfortable when things don't fit.
Once I discovered multiple categories can apply simultaneously, I was a lot happier. And when you then apply duck typing, categories fit the messy world even better.
In that sense,...
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@Tattie I don't think that was so much the case here, but that would be the extreme, yes.
I run into this issue a fair bit. I have an urge to categorize, and I think it's generally a human urge. In my case, it may even be stronger, because autism makes it uncomfortable when things don't fit.
Once I discovered multiple categories can apply simultaneously, I was a lot happier. And when you then apply duck typing, categories fit the messy world even better.
In that sense,...
@Tattie @JoscelynTransient ... I find that most stuff one encounters can be duck-typed into many categories, and each may provide valuable feedback: if I apply this lens, what does the thing look like?
So I truly do not mind being interpreted as green or blue. It's a necessary thing, IMHO. I just don't like being told, effectively, "because I have viewed you through the blue lens and everything is clear, you must be blue".
That misses the green bits, and vice versa.
Not that it happened here.
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@Tattie @JoscelynTransient ... I find that most stuff one encounters can be duck-typed into many categories, and each may provide valuable feedback: if I apply this lens, what does the thing look like?
So I truly do not mind being interpreted as green or blue. It's a necessary thing, IMHO. I just don't like being told, effectively, "because I have viewed you through the blue lens and everything is clear, you must be blue".
That misses the green bits, and vice versa.
Not that it happened here.
@jens you would like to be considered both green and blue, am I hearing? That would more meet the totality of you?
@JoscelynTransient -
@siege As soon as I ran the thought experiment of “Would you push this button that turns you into a woman?” it was basically all over for me. I didn’t know it yet, but it was *all* over.
@glassblowerscat @siege This.
That was the exact point I realized, shit, I’m trans. I’d been skating around it, but never seeing it for what it truly was: gender dysphoria. -
@glassblowerscat @siege This.
That was the exact point I realized, shit, I’m trans. I’d been skating around it, but never seeing it for what it truly was: gender dysphoria.@jaye @glassblowerscat @siege If someone had asked me the button question when I was a child I would have smashed it to bits from hitting it so much. I'm one of the rare ones that seemed like I always knew but never had the courage to take the leap.
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@siege I know at least one such cryptid, and she's amazing. The self-assuredness that takes at such a young age is beyond the reach of most.
Myself I'm an unholy combination of 2 and 3. I voiced my truth to myself at 17 years old, concluded it unactionable, and then pushed for some other explanation for the next fifteen years. (And then still didn't do anything concrete for another half decade).
@valentine -
@siege I know at least one such cryptid, and she's amazing. The self-assuredness that takes at such a young age is beyond the reach of most.
Myself I'm an unholy combination of 2 and 3. I voiced my truth to myself at 17 years old, concluded it unactionable, and then pushed for some other explanation for the next fifteen years. (And then still didn't do anything concrete for another half decade).
@valentine -
@jaye @glassblowerscat @siege If someone had asked me the button question when I was a child I would have smashed it to bits from hitting it so much. I'm one of the rare ones that seemed like I always knew but never had the courage to take the leap.
@glassblowerscat @AppleFangirl @siege I’m not sure which would be easier to deal with tbh.
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@eruonna @Tattie @siege We're all kind of in a cohort.
I can look back and see times where the truth came close, but the cultural lack of information about trans guys and especially nonbinary people just...prevented the inner sentiment from taking conscious shape.
And later on, at 25 and 29, I came close but external events interrupted the introspection that was leading me there.
I'm glad I've been able to identify some moments when I almost realized. It takes away the "how did I not ever know?" bewilderment that I felt for a long time, after starting to transition. And heck, I'm just glad I figured it out at all! I owe a lot to the kids on the internet. -
@glassblowerscat @AppleFangirl @siege I’m not sure which would be easier to deal with tbh.
@jaye @glassblowerscat @siege All I know is repressing that and internalizing it for five decades almost killed me a few times.
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@jaye @glassblowerscat @siege All I know is repressing that and internalizing it for five decades almost killed me a few times.
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@jaye @glassblowerscat @siege Thanks. 🫂 At least I'm finally on my way. And feeling a whole lot better mentally as well. Better late than never.
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@jaye @glassblowerscat @siege Thanks. 🫂 At least I'm finally on my way. And feeling a whole lot better mentally as well. Better late than never.
@AppleFangirl @siege @glassblowerscat
It’s amazing how different it feels to simply be yourself around safe, loving people. I had no idea how grating it was to force myself into “boy mode” all these years. -
@siege @valentine there is a fourth group which is small but may hopefully get bigger: people who were told all their lives, by at least some of the people around them, that they are the ones who ultimately know their own gender, that being trans is an actual possibility for them. I know some kids like that.
It seems a little like the tragectory that sexuality has taken (and some of this will likely depend on where you are). Nowadays, there are a lot more kids who grow up knowing that they might be gay, that they can just pay attention to their own feelings of attraction. It's not perfect; those kids are still moving through a highly heteronormative world. But it is easier than it was thirty years ago.
@eruonna @siege I totally agree.
I'd only add that I would love to see an increase in discourse about the different ways that gay attraction can feel from straight attraction when you're young. Queer attraction is not just about who it's aimed at -- it's a difference in vibe altogether.
Essentially, how being attracted to guys can often feel really different when you're also a guy, than attraction to guys feels when you're a girl.
That shit would have REALLY helped me out when I was going through puberty, because I knew *for sure* that I was attracted to guys. It would have helped to understand that I was attracted to them in a boy-way.
It's hard to parse out exactly what that means, and I think some people would push back if they thought the description of it took anything away from the ways women could be attracted to men.
But like, I think everyone would accept that being attracted to women is a different sentiment for a lesbian than it is for a straight man. It is qualitatively different. The same goes for a little gay boy in a girl's body, vs. a little straight girl.
My sexual orientation was set -- it was just mis-labeled due to my looking like a girl, and the intensity of it was one of the things that kept me assuming I was a straight woman for a tragicomically long time.
I hope that gay and lesbian trans people can start putting their early experiences out there, so that pre-transition kids can see what they vibe with, and gain some validation from.
