Car just drove by and one of the guys in it made the 🐈👅 gesture out the window at me.
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@alice @Colman @blainsmith @rbphotographic Rule of thumb: comment on things that are changeable and they worked on, like your extension is great or you are looking solid on those turns. Absolutely do not comment on things they cannot control, like you look beautiful or you have lovely legs. For example, sometimes people say to me: you have beautiful hair and it’s weird because like it’s just my hair? What am I suppose to respond, thanks I grew it myself? I also make it a rule not to comment on people’s appearance at work.
@irene @alice @Colman @blainsmith @rbphotographic Which also relates to a word choice I’ve been trying to be more aware of: talent versus skill. Talent is often considered innate (like “gifted”), while skill is always considered developed.
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@alice a lot of replies to this make me think that hopefully I'm probably doing the right thing by acting "antisocial" around women in public. I'm gay/queer, but cis and I pass for straight, so I just assume women who don't know me will perceive me as a potential threat. It's fine, my dog and I can step off the sidewalk and give you space.
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@alice @spiegelmama @Aprazeth Mike Harriot has a pretty good way of shutting up the "not all men" or the "not all white people" crowd.
Paraphrasing, if I say "Elephants trampled my grandma to death," it would be idiotic to say "Well not ALL elephants trampled your memaw!" And that's true. It wasn't all elephants; it was elephants. I'm not saying all elephants are dangerous; I'm saying elephants are dangerous.
Also, if someone said "Elephants trampled my grandma to death", it would be very strange to say anything but "Oh no, that's terrible!"
And yet…
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@alice need a gesture that is similar to "I like your shoelaces"
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@Colman "you are impressively talented", "you are an amazing dancer", "I'm humbled to share a stage with someone who puts in so much effort".
Say it lightly, around other people, and then continue whatever else you were doing and let them decide whether or how to take your compliment. If they chase you up to say thanks, then you did good. If they don't, then you said something kind and that's all there is to it.
I hear a lot of guys saying things like "I don't know how to compliment a woman", and my best answer is that you do it without expecting anything in return. Most people can tell when a compliment is genuine and when it's manipulative.
@alice @Colman @irene @blainsmith @rbphotographic
As an older guy who works with a lot of younger women, if I ever give them a compliment it is a completely neutral phrase like "you look amazing". No implication of attraction involved. "You look great" seems safe. What do you think?
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@alice @Colman @irene @blainsmith @rbphotographic
As an older guy who works with a lot of younger women, if I ever give them a compliment it is a completely neutral phrase like "you look amazing". No implication of attraction involved. "You look great" seems safe. What do you think?
@negative12dollarbill @alice @irene @blainsmith @rbphotographic I also have the disability of being brought up in London and Ireland in the 70s so compliments are a foreign language to start with.
Also, keep in mind that they are scantily dressed so I'm definitely safest not noticing anything about their appearance!
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@GinevraCat I’ve had since my days on the bird app and it has come in handy
@stephaniepixie
Brilliant. -
@alice
Ok
Old Guy hereALL men have been and are likely to be guilty of some degree of this, and ALL men need to step up and ~police themselves~ AND ~Police other men~
Add this as a duty to be performed on a regular basisIf you suddenly have an urge to shout "not me" or "not all men", suck that neck back in, and know that 100% you are trying to fool us, or fool yourself.
None of us are immune to this, and all of us need to do the effort to curb itStart now
@screwturn @alice This resonates. Another Old Guy here. I'm pretty sure I have never been The Problem (though I realize final judgement on that is not mine to make), but I have definitely been present when other men WERE the problem, and through some combination of my lack of awareness, lack of understanding, lack of surety (will I help or further harm by speaking out? will I be seen as trying to White Knight if I do?), and lack of courage, failed to address the problem.
1/3
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@screwturn @alice This resonates. Another Old Guy here. I'm pretty sure I have never been The Problem (though I realize final judgement on that is not mine to make), but I have definitely been present when other men WERE the problem, and through some combination of my lack of awareness, lack of understanding, lack of surety (will I help or further harm by speaking out? will I be seen as trying to White Knight if I do?), and lack of courage, failed to address the problem.
1/3
@screwturn @alice One day at a convention, I went utterly south on this pervy motherfucker trying to hit on my sixteen year old daughter. It was ugly. Years later my daughter told me that my reaction was the only reason she remembered the interaction at all. Before I stuck my nose in, this miserable fuck was just another day of being "a girl in public."
That kinda spun me, and I thought about so many times I'd been witness to the shittiness men are capable of.
2/3
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@screwturn @alice One day at a convention, I went utterly south on this pervy motherfucker trying to hit on my sixteen year old daughter. It was ugly. Years later my daughter told me that my reaction was the only reason she remembered the interaction at all. Before I stuck my nose in, this miserable fuck was just another day of being "a girl in public."
That kinda spun me, and I thought about so many times I'd been witness to the shittiness men are capable of.
2/3
@screwturn @alice I'd like to think I've done better since, been more aware, more understanding, learned some ways to help, been more courageous. Been more aware of the ways in which I am, however unintentionally, part of the problem. Again, not for me to judge whether or not I've succeeded. Certainly haven't writ-large. But I continue to try. I'm at least more aware.
3/3
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@jfparis @rbphotographic
Exactly that. And then you're wondering what you can wear and what you shouldn't wear. I wear sports leggings to run in because they are the most comfortable thing but, you want a dark colour so they don't draw attention and a tee-shirt which isn't too fitted. I always wear either a beanie or a baseball cap to cover my hair and would never run outside in shorts, unless I'm with other people.
It's actually fucking exhausting to have to think like this...@Jaimieserotica
And if you wear dark colours, you can also be blamed for not being visible enough if a driver runs you over.Catch 22
@rbphotographic @alice -
@Jaimieserotica
And if you wear dark colours, you can also be blamed for not being visible enough if a driver runs you over.Catch 22
@rbphotographic @alice@jfparis
Hi-vis tops are fine (as long as they aren't fitted) dark leggings don't show the shape of your legs and ass as much as lighter ones. Pale coloured running leggings seem to be an invitation to be harassed.
I would never exercise outdoors in anything other than full daylight anyway.
@rbphotographic @alice -
@alice Are you addressing *all* "guys"? I'm a "guy", but neither do I drive an insult on four wheels (also called "car"), nor am I single.
The shame of being a "human being" is enough already!
Funny. I read it as addressed to all the guys who think this behavior is appropriate.
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Okay, I'll bite:
When you read or hear complaints from men about us that are both generalized and not modified with words like "Some," do you also rush in then to tell them "Not all women, Dude!" ?
I expect consistency since all day long in other spaces I can readily find shit like, "Lol women are all just selfish, money-grubbing parasites for not sleeping with me right now."
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@jfparis
Hi-vis tops are fine (as long as they aren't fitted) dark leggings don't show the shape of your legs and ass as much as lighter ones. Pale coloured running leggings seem to be an invitation to be harassed.
I would never exercise outdoors in anything other than full daylight anyway.
@rbphotographic @alice@Jaimieserotica the fact that "does this read as `asking` for it?" is even a passing thought in most women's minds is a mark of just how wholely society has failed to address the actual problem.
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@Colman one of the insidious things is that it's *so* easy to miss when you're not the target.
Of the 4 people in the car (one girl, 3 guys), only the guy making the gesture, and the guy laughing next to him seemed aware of it. So besides me and the two who found it funny, no one else on that busy street noticed.
@alice @Colman @Aprazeth I can't get over how many guys *were right there* and manage not to see it. Was in a taxi one time with a driver who was refusing to follow the turn by turn directions I was saying. Just turning his own way. The fellow, guy-passenger in the car had no idea why this might be terrifying.
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@31113 @irene It may depend on the context. Compliment something that someone has clearly put effort into.
If I haven't really done much with my hair except leave it be for a few days, or if I feel it's having a scraggly day, it feels weird to get a compliment on it. But if I've put effort into it, then sure! I'll probably joke about how I put water in it, but that's more because I'm not always practiced with receiving compliments.
But things like a well out together outfit, coordinated nail color, etc make for appearance themed compliments that land much better than just body parts.
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@alice @Colman @irene @blainsmith @rbphotographic
As an older guy who works with a lot of younger women, if I ever give them a compliment it is a completely neutral phrase like "you look amazing". No implication of attraction involved. "You look great" seems safe. What do you think?
@negative12dollarbill @alice @Colman @blainsmith @rbphotographic it’s better to compliment them on their work. Women are so use to being objectified and only there to be looked at that they sometimes want to not be looked at and judged on their appearance. I’m not speaking for all women but for me at least, I don’t think of how I look at work at all. It can be jarring to be reminded of it when I’m at work, I think of myself as a sort of formless blob talking about operating systems. You might think it’s a compliment but it might be difficult for the women to have to stop their work and think about how to respond. I might recommend you read this blog post that I wrote for more insights. https://irenezhang.com/blog/2024/07/24/misogyny.html
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@negative12dollarbill @alice @Colman @blainsmith @rbphotographic it’s better to compliment them on their work. Women are so use to being objectified and only there to be looked at that they sometimes want to not be looked at and judged on their appearance. I’m not speaking for all women but for me at least, I don’t think of how I look at work at all. It can be jarring to be reminded of it when I’m at work, I think of myself as a sort of formless blob talking about operating systems. You might think it’s a compliment but it might be difficult for the women to have to stop their work and think about how to respond. I might recommend you read this blog post that I wrote for more insights. https://irenezhang.com/blog/2024/07/24/misogyny.html
@irene @negative12dollarbill @alice @Colman @rbphotographic When my daughter first started getting into dressing herself with outfits of her design I never replied with "you look so pretty/cute/etc". I always phased it as "you're outfit choice today is so creative" and then followed up with asking how she ended up choosing it. This way it still support her in a way she wanted to be support, but never about her looks and always about her choices of creativity she wanted to share with me.
