If you have to do or participate in something in order to survive, it's not a privilege, right?
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@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
You're wonderful (as are you, too Faith). All of what I'm saying is in good faith (no pun intended), and I know yours is, too.
I can see how it would seem like I'm concerned with oppression olympics given the topic, but I assure you that's not my point of concern. My point of concern, oddly enough since you brought it up, is similar to the "male socialization" issue.
The arguments that we have/had male privilege and "male socialization" (which I also am not a proponent of this view), is that these are the basis of the same points that are used by TERFs to deny us our womanhood, to deny us our spaces. It's the same reason why a queer organization won't hire trans women and only hire trans mascs and other AFAB queer people.
These same arguments are all of the reasons why even in so many queer spaces, let alone in the wider world, we are separated and blocked.
Like, it's not about oppression olympics, but again, I can see why it would look that way. It's the practical matter of using the language of original sin in order to lord over us that we'll never be real women (and perhaps more significantly, that we will always be men) because of our privilege and so-called socialization.
I think Julia Serrano explains so many of the effects better in the why are we denied the closet piece: https://juliaserano.medium.com/why-are-amab-trans-people-denied-the-closet-7fd5c740ce30
This is more to the heart of my point.
@revoluciana @JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping see, this feels like a totally separate topic—related but separate. because this feels less about whether or not we actually experience pre-transition gender privilege (tricky and nuanced!) and a lot more about how the perception of male privilege is weaponized against us by bigots (simple and straightforward!) and the tactics we might use to mitigate.
also, i would need to reread that particular article to comment more specifically on it, but to be perfectly honest i don’t think serrano has very good takes on this general area of trans discourse.
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@revoluciana @JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping see, this feels like a totally separate topic—related but separate. because this feels less about whether or not we actually experience pre-transition gender privilege (tricky and nuanced!) and a lot more about how the perception of male privilege is weaponized against us by bigots (simple and straightforward!) and the tactics we might use to mitigate.
also, i would need to reread that particular article to comment more specifically on it, but to be perfectly honest i don’t think serrano has very good takes on this general area of trans discourse.
@deirdre @JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
I think all of that is fair, including about Serrano (I also don't agree with everything in this particular piece of hers, but I think that she makes a lot of really good points that are germane to this discussion).
And maybe I need to see if I can separate these things, like you say. It's possible that they're separate, but it's difficult because the *only* time I have ever seen the so-called male privilege of trans women brought up is to weaponizen it against us in order to call us men and deny our womanhood or even proximity to it. I don't think there's any other situation I've ever seen where it's ever been relevant to anything except as a cudgel against us.
I'll see what I can do to parse it out because you do have a point. I am not sure if it can be parsed or not. It's tangly if nothing else.
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In reply to the question of privilege:
Do Bacha Posh have male privilege?
Bacha Posh are Afghan girls who are *forced* to act and "live as" boys for the sake of her family, to act as an escort for the women in her family, to access education, to keep her family from starving, and other variety of reasons.
If she is forced to do this against her will in order to access the privilege only given to men, or even for survival, then does that automatically mean she has male privilege?
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Here's what I'm getting at.
Trans women don't experience male privilege before coming out. It's not a privilege if you have to sacrifice everything you are in order to obtain it. And in the case of trans women, we don't even sacrifice who we are in order to obtain male privilege, we do it just to survive. I'm having such a difficult time believing it's privilege when it's bought and paid for, especially at such a high price.
@revoluciana @pathfinder to be clear, not a negation. Forming a second theory by leveraging your first.
I read this and I can see substituting "autistics" for "trans women" and "unmasking" for "coming out" and it reads just as true. Many of us have similarly struggled to live in this world that was not built for us.
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@KatS Not trying to ignore the rest of what you wrote, but trying to juggle at the moment. The reason it's of concern to me isn't about guilt, but yes, it is about the same original sin that TERFs use to deny us our humanity and our womanhood. The idea that we will always be men because of our male privilege and so-called male socialization. It has practical effects even in queer spaces because we're often not treated not for who we are, but for our perceived original sin.
Julia Serrano has a piece that touches on much of this and the effects:
https://juliaserano.medium.com/why-are-amab-trans-people-denied-the-closet-7fd5c740ce30Reading the first couple paragraphs of this article, I realized I actually saw that happen.
On the newest season of The Traitors, one of the guys tells another guy he's a "really good actor" (in a snide way). The other guy actually had just gone through a whole scandal bc he was engaged to a woman and then cheated on her with a man before eventually publicly coming out as gay.
The man had been in the closet his whole life. And he shot right back about it to shut the first guy down.
Everyone in that moment recognized what an awful thing the suggestion was; that he was "acting" and "privileged" for being able to "pretend" for so long.
Fascinating to see on TV.
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@revoluciana @pathfinder to be clear, not a negation. Forming a second theory by leveraging your first.
I read this and I can see substituting "autistics" for "trans women" and "unmasking" for "coming out" and it reads just as true. Many of us have similarly struggled to live in this world that was not built for us.
Goddamn. As an autistic girl, yes, I definitely agree.
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Goddamn. As an autistic girl, yes, I definitely agree.
@revoluciana @pathfinder I guess you read what I meant. "Unmasking" for "coming out".
ADHD error crept in.
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Reading the first couple paragraphs of this article, I realized I actually saw that happen.
On the newest season of The Traitors, one of the guys tells another guy he's a "really good actor" (in a snide way). The other guy actually had just gone through a whole scandal bc he was engaged to a woman and then cheated on her with a man before eventually publicly coming out as gay.
The man had been in the closet his whole life. And he shot right back about it to shut the first guy down.
Everyone in that moment recognized what an awful thing the suggestion was; that he was "acting" and "privileged" for being able to "pretend" for so long.
Fascinating to see on TV.
@CordiallyChloe @KatS oh wow. That's. Oof. I don't watch the show but I'm interested in seeing the exchange. Do you remember which episode (and maybe what platform?)
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@revoluciana @pathfinder I guess you read what I meant. "Unmasking" for "coming out".
ADHD error crept in.
️Haha, yes. I understood what you meant just glancing when I saw the words autistic and unmasking.
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@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
You're wonderful (as are you, too Faith). All of what I'm saying is in good faith (no pun intended), and I know yours is, too.
I can see how it would seem like I'm concerned with oppression olympics given the topic, but I assure you that's not my point of concern. My point of concern, oddly enough since you brought it up, is similar to the "male socialization" issue.
The arguments that we have/had male privilege and "male socialization" (which I also am not a proponent of this view), is that these are the basis of the same points that are used by TERFs to deny us our womanhood, to deny us our spaces. It's the same reason why a queer organization won't hire trans women and only hire trans mascs and other AFAB queer people.
These same arguments are all of the reasons why even in so many queer spaces, let alone in the wider world, we are separated and blocked.
Like, it's not about oppression olympics, but again, I can see why it would look that way. It's the practical matter of using the language of original sin in order to lord over us that we'll never be real women (and perhaps more significantly, that we will always be men) because of our privilege and so-called socialization.
I think Julia Serrano explains so many of the effects better in the why are we denied the closet piece: https://juliaserano.medium.com/why-are-amab-trans-people-denied-the-closet-7fd5c740ce30
This is more to the heart of my point.
@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
Btw, Joscelyn, I absolutely know you have far more grounding in social theory than me and I hope you don't feel invalidated or concerned about my feelings or exploration. All the above from my end I want to be sure to acknowledge to you is out of respect for the fact that this is not my background. Mine is more related to power dynamics in other sorts of contexts, so I apply an outside knowledge to this particular context, and it can get messy when I do. I absolutely appreciate you and your perspective, and I wouldn't have posted if I didn't want people with your insight and expertise to help educate me. Even if my ability to absorb it is a bit thick. But I'm posting specifically *because* I don't see what see, and I want to better understand.
I just wanted to say that because I think based on your language, you might feel like I might not be receptive to what you have to say or that I would be upset by it.
And honestly, the IRL conversation last night was not helped by inebriation, and it was very heated, and the IRL conversation very much made me feel invalidated, so some of what I was posting was trying to help sort out an IRL mess that I was dealing with because my mental and emotional load couldn't carry it.
All that is to say, I appreciate you, friend.
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@CordiallyChloe @KatS oh wow. That's. Oof. I don't watch the show but I'm interested in seeing the exchange. Do you remember which episode (and maybe what platform?)
@revoluciana @KatS Looks like it was S4E5. It's on Peacock.
I actually REALLY enjoyed the season. If you like deception board games (or even if you've never tried one), you might enjoy it as well.
There is additional context - the gay guy was actually abusive to women in the past. So it's not like he's a saint here. But that doesn't make the homophobia acceptable.
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@revoluciana @KatS Looks like it was S4E5. It's on Peacock.
I actually REALLY enjoyed the season. If you like deception board games (or even if you've never tried one), you might enjoy it as well.
There is additional context - the gay guy was actually abusive to women in the past. So it's not like he's a saint here. But that doesn't make the homophobia acceptable.
Totally understand. Thank you for this!
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Do Bacha Posh have male privilege?
Bacha Posh are Afghan girls who are *forced* to act and "live as" boys for the sake of her family, to act as an escort for the women in her family, to access education, to keep her family from starving, and other variety of reasons.
If she is forced to do this against her will in order to access the privilege only given to men, or even for survival, then does that automatically mean she has male privilege?
She accesses male only *privileges* but not in a way I would call "male privilege" in the general sense.
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@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
Btw, Joscelyn, I absolutely know you have far more grounding in social theory than me and I hope you don't feel invalidated or concerned about my feelings or exploration. All the above from my end I want to be sure to acknowledge to you is out of respect for the fact that this is not my background. Mine is more related to power dynamics in other sorts of contexts, so I apply an outside knowledge to this particular context, and it can get messy when I do. I absolutely appreciate you and your perspective, and I wouldn't have posted if I didn't want people with your insight and expertise to help educate me. Even if my ability to absorb it is a bit thick. But I'm posting specifically *because* I don't see what see, and I want to better understand.
I just wanted to say that because I think based on your language, you might feel like I might not be receptive to what you have to say or that I would be upset by it.
And honestly, the IRL conversation last night was not helped by inebriation, and it was very heated, and the IRL conversation very much made me feel invalidated, so some of what I was posting was trying to help sort out an IRL mess that I was dealing with because my mental and emotional load couldn't carry it.
All that is to say, I appreciate you, friend.
@revoluciana @faithisleaping don’t worry, i am getting the sense that it’s more being caught in that argument and all the feels it brought up, rather than an academic discussion. And that’s understandable- having someone invalidate you and your experience hurts, and is endlessly frustrating.
Honestly, I’d suggest more writing about how the way this person and others use these ideas makes you feel. Get out those feelings and express them, because that seems to be what’s really on your mind, right? Rather than actually digging into the social science of this stuff. Then maybe after that, you can come back to what theory and research actually say about these things more broadly and with nuance in trying to improve understanding?
I did try to articulate at least a little that the way TERFs and such conceptualize it is the problem, and they are the one’s using this framing. And in an argument about this, rather than arguing about how to theorize male privilege, I would say change the field of discussion and don’t fight the battle they’re trying to make you fight. I keep trying to write out examples, but it’s all coming out wrong…not having context makes it really hard to reframe
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@DavidM_yeg that's inherently my point. This is helpful.
You're afforded these things because of the way society and systems reward you simply because of who you are.
Even if a trans woman *was* afforded these things before coming out (we're often not afforded these things), it's not afforded because of who she is, but because of who she was punished into pretending to be. In other words, she had to sacrifice in order to get those things. She had to sacrifice her entire self through torture and pain in order to have them. That doesn't feel like privilege when it's paid for through sacrifice.
“You're afforded these things because of the way society and systems reward you simply because of who you are.”
I don’t think that’s quite true… I have privilege because of who the system has *decided* who I am, in the moment. That’s quite different, bc my internal experience is … irrelevant. This is part of how these systems are oppressive; by reducing people to categories and objects. But meanwhile privilege is real regardless of my feelings or experience of it.
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If you have to do or participate in something in order to survive, it's not a privilege, right? It can't possibly be? I feel like we've already established this. Am I wrong?
@revoluciana Imagine a tech job posting where you had to bet on who would get an interview, just based on their resume.
There are two resumes, equally qualified, but the names on the resumes are Mark and Linda.
Who are you placing your money on to get that interview? Because statistically it's Mark.
And it doesn't matter if Mark is actually a trans woman who hasn't transitioned yet, because that is entirely irrelevant to whether Mark had an advantaged position for the job over Linda.
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She accesses male only *privileges* but not in a way I would call "male privilege" in the general sense.
@dlakelan I appreciate this phrasing
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@revoluciana @faithisleaping don’t worry, i am getting the sense that it’s more being caught in that argument and all the feels it brought up, rather than an academic discussion. And that’s understandable- having someone invalidate you and your experience hurts, and is endlessly frustrating.
Honestly, I’d suggest more writing about how the way this person and others use these ideas makes you feel. Get out those feelings and express them, because that seems to be what’s really on your mind, right? Rather than actually digging into the social science of this stuff. Then maybe after that, you can come back to what theory and research actually say about these things more broadly and with nuance in trying to improve understanding?
I did try to articulate at least a little that the way TERFs and such conceptualize it is the problem, and they are the one’s using this framing. And in an argument about this, rather than arguing about how to theorize male privilege, I would say change the field of discussion and don’t fight the battle they’re trying to make you fight. I keep trying to write out examples, but it’s all coming out wrong…not having context makes it really hard to reframe
@JoscelynTransient @faithisleaping
Totally understand this. The only thing was that I wasn't trying to fight last night, or today for that matter, but I also know people perceive me as combative when I discuss things, and I think that's mostly related to my autism and my methods of inquiry and curiosity. So, while I was appreciating all the input and giving counterpoints on here to show my understanding (and what I'm not understanding), I think people perceive that as fighting.
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@revoluciana @faithisleaping don’t worry, i am getting the sense that it’s more being caught in that argument and all the feels it brought up, rather than an academic discussion. And that’s understandable- having someone invalidate you and your experience hurts, and is endlessly frustrating.
Honestly, I’d suggest more writing about how the way this person and others use these ideas makes you feel. Get out those feelings and express them, because that seems to be what’s really on your mind, right? Rather than actually digging into the social science of this stuff. Then maybe after that, you can come back to what theory and research actually say about these things more broadly and with nuance in trying to improve understanding?
I did try to articulate at least a little that the way TERFs and such conceptualize it is the problem, and they are the one’s using this framing. And in an argument about this, rather than arguing about how to theorize male privilege, I would say change the field of discussion and don’t fight the battle they’re trying to make you fight. I keep trying to write out examples, but it’s all coming out wrong…not having context makes it really hard to reframe
@JoscelynTransient @revoluciana @faithisleaping An idea that might help is that privilege is often about the things you don't have to think about, not some sort of magic power. Male privilege is largely about the things men don't have to notice but women absolutely must. White privilege is largely about the things white people never see but people of color live in every day. And so on.
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Here's what I'm getting at.
Trans women don't experience male privilege before coming out. It's not a privilege if you have to sacrifice everything you are in order to obtain it. And in the case of trans women, we don't even sacrifice who we are in order to obtain male privilege, we do it just to survive. I'm having such a difficult time believing it's privilege when it's bought and paid for, especially at such a high price.
@revoluciana oof, so, I have complicated thoughts on this. Bear with me.
When trans women in technical positions suddenly find themselves being underestimated and undermined by their colleagues who previously viewed them as competent, that is some form of privilege lost, right?
But it's still worth it, so it's not so cut-and-dried as being a single, unidirectional transaction. This is where I think the concept of privilege fails us, or at least doesn't permit the necessary nuance.
If we talk about protection, we can talk about appearing male as being a form of protection. It may not be healthy or wise or right, but there is some reason people might choose it anyway, and that reason can be considered a privilege, in that it's not automatic and not everyone can opt in at the drop of a hat. There are people who would choose to temporarily present as male when walking down a dark alley, but can't. They lack that option.
But again, that doesn't mean it's right or worth it or comes without repercussions. It just means it's an option -- or even something that happens without their opting in -- that some people have and some don't. The way "male privilege" is usually discussed is implicitly the much more narrow case where it's consensual and without repercussions, and that's where people end up talking at cross-purposes while using ostensibly the same language.
