tell me you’re a coward without telling me
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@Athena unless someone is literally stalking sam altman -- and we _all_ know they're not -- they're taking out their anger on the wrong target, even if that target is the biggest LLM advocate that ever walked the earth
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tell me you’re a coward without telling me
No comment on this PR may mention the following topics:
Long-term social or economic impact of LLMs
The environmental impact of LLMs
Anything to do with the copyright status of LLM output
Moral judgements about people who use LLMs
We have asked the moderation team to help us enforce these rules.Add an LLM policy for `rust-lang/rust` by jyn514 · Pull Request #1040 · rust-lang/rust-forge
Information useful to people contributing to Rust. Contribute to rust-lang/rust-forge development by creating an account on GitHub.
GitHub (github.com)
@Athena I have read hundreds of posts on the ethics of LLMs on the rust-lang Zulip. They have had and are having those discussions. Just not in the policy document itself
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tell me you’re a coward without telling me
No comment on this PR may mention the following topics:
Long-term social or economic impact of LLMs
The environmental impact of LLMs
Anything to do with the copyright status of LLM output
Moral judgements about people who use LLMs
We have asked the moderation team to help us enforce these rules.Add an LLM policy for `rust-lang/rust` by jyn514 · Pull Request #1040 · rust-lang/rust-forge
Information useful to people contributing to Rust. Contribute to rust-lang/rust-forge development by creating an account on GitHub.
GitHub (github.com)
@Athena@chaosfem.tw yuck. It would simply be best to not accept these submissions at all when there is a significant portion of the community which raise uncontested ethical concerns. That they cannot see this as a problem is pretty icky. Plus, jackh as lost almost all benefit of the doubt from me after that horrible LLM-generated Rust community update.
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@Athena@chaosfem.tw @ophis@brain.worm.pink I have to contradict there. So you want people who use proprietary software at all (including cloud hosted one, like Gmail) to not contribute to open source projects at all.
That is a valid view one can have. So better block me, as right now I am typing this on an iPad with the built in Apple keyboard that has a prediction feature that is supposedly based on some form of LLM. I am never actually using the word predictions, but that is just me telling you, you have no way of knowing I am honest.
Similarly, I would assume without knowing that Office 365's grammar check uses an LLM. Previous versions supposedly did not use an LLM but a machine learning approach nevertheless (one from a time before the chatbot hype). But honestly? I do not know that. Microsoft could ship an auto update that adds a LLM.
Also, I expect a future Chrome and Firefox to both contain LLMs for text checking. Would you want those browsers then to be banned from all open source discussions? Or would you then demand that open source related discussion sites take measures to disable the LLMs, e.g. by reimplementing the text field (and breaking accessibility for the blind in the process)?
As for LibreOffice - I can check the source code there. Have you seen it though? To find out for sure there is no LLM (which is my assumption) there I would have to sift through one of the least readable code bases ever.
No, in my opinion standard writing tools should be allowed, provided one personally reads and verifies the output. The professor in your example has specifically not done that. You have, or else you would not have noticed the form/from.
Anything else is discriminating against non native speakers, of which my wife has received more than enough in our time in Trumpistan. She was forced to use LLM based writing tools there, or else she was immediately ignored for basically "writing with an accent" (and telephone was outright impossible for both of us). Heck, we A/B tested that, and her accent in writing is not even that bad - but bad enough to immediately be noticed by Americans.
If we could instead move to a world in which people with accents and imperfect writing are accepted (like we had in the 90s when I started on the internet, and like half the people on IRC had some obvious accent and it was okay), I would prefer that, and then nobody would need this LLM stuff. But right now it is basic accessibility for non native speakers. Even I probably am writing with an accent here.@divVerent @Athena as a native english speaker jesus FUCKING christ please i'm begging you get the hell rid of the slop machine
i'll take broken engrish over *that* garbage any day, and will misinterpret a lot less -
@divVerent @Athena as a native english speaker jesus FUCKING christ please i'm begging you get the hell rid of the slop machine
i'll take broken engrish over *that* garbage any day, and will misinterpret a lot less@Athena@chaosfem.tw @ophis@brain.worm.pink You seem to be the exception there, though. Persomally I use no tools other than the one forced on me (like predictive text bars on mobile keyboards I generally ignore).
But I understand it is a necessary accessibility tool for some, and do not want it outright banned for that reason alone.
As said, alternatively get those right wing extremists out (shoot every single last one of them to Mars), and then maybe society will become more tolerant to accents again. Maybe. -
@Athena@chaosfem.tw @ophis@brain.worm.pink You seem to be the exception there, though. Persomally I use no tools other than the one forced on me (like predictive text bars on mobile keyboards I generally ignore).
But I understand it is a necessary accessibility tool for some, and do not want it outright banned for that reason alone.
As said, alternatively get those right wing extremists out (shoot every single last one of them to Mars), and then maybe society will become more tolerant to accents again. Maybe.@Athena@chaosfem.tw @ophis@brain.worm.pink Furthermore I predict that all major web browsers will have a builtin slop machine by 2030 in form of replacing the built-in spell checker for textarea fields by a slop machine.
What should we do then? Sticking to older browser versions means being free wild for security exploits. And there are only two browser engines left, so once Chromium and Firefox have a built-in slop machine, all browsers do.
Should we then boycott <textarea> and build our own text fields - screw the blind? Or block all major browsers and do "this website can only be viewed with Dillo"? -
gettin’ myself banned from the rust github https://github.com/rust-lang/rust-forge/pull/1040#issuecomment-4460618392
@Athena You have been banned????
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@Athena oh yes, it has, but you underestimate how many people on the team are pissed about that and want it to change but need to be diplomatic about it so they don't lose their jobs or positions
like, the tech industry is extremely unfavorable to people who dissent to LLMs and just showing up and complaining that people aren't doing enough is putting these people in impossible positions where they agree with you but are forced to say nothing and let the fascists dunk on you because they can't be so overt about it
I've been especially frustrated lately because this has been happening to me too, but like, at least I know what the situation is and am working on changing it. again, I'm just pointing out that even though you were extremely tame in the discussion relative to what you're saying here, all you did is invite more folks to throw shit and get the discussion locked so now not even I can comment on it
@clarfonthey @Athena Ohh, boohoohoo.
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@jepyang are you literally incapable of reading down the thread to see what happened to the argument or do you just like bothering people for no reason
@clarfonthey @jepyang@wandering.shop It's wild that you, of all people, thought that would be a sensible thing to say.
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@Athena You have been banned????
@goedelchen I was not actually banned, I just knew my commentary would not be received well. And it was not; the thread got locked pretty much immediately
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tell me you’re a coward without telling me
No comment on this PR may mention the following topics:
Long-term social or economic impact of LLMs
The environmental impact of LLMs
Anything to do with the copyright status of LLM output
Moral judgements about people who use LLMs
We have asked the moderation team to help us enforce these rules.Add an LLM policy for `rust-lang/rust` by jyn514 · Pull Request #1040 · rust-lang/rust-forge
Information useful to people contributing to Rust. Contribute to rust-lang/rust-forge development by creating an account on GitHub.
GitHub (github.com)
@Athena How can this person unilaterally decide such topic should not be taken into account‽ Especially for such an important and divisive topic!
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@Athena How can this person unilaterally decide such topic should not be taken into account‽ Especially for such an important and divisive topic!
@KekunPlazas in fairness it was not unilateral, it was a decision from the rust team as a whole based on “nobody agrees on the ethics so it’s toooooo haaaaaard and nobody is allowed to talk about it”
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@KekunPlazas in fairness it was not unilateral, it was a decision from the rust team as a whole based on “nobody agrees on the ethics so it’s toooooo haaaaaard and nobody is allowed to talk about it”
@Athena Ah, alright, let's not shoot the messenger then.
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@Athena I am suddenly less interested in their policy on LLMs and more interested in their policy on ethics. Excluding ethical concerns as a basis for policy is what you do when you know your preferred policies are unethical. Any project which accepts such an exclusion should be treated as a threat.
@ShadSterling @Athena @davidgerard The rust foundation has always erred on the side of unethical, and sometimes even racism.
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i wrote a thing https://parthen.online/notes/rust-llm-rfc/
@Athena I really like this. May I incorporate it into a little project of my own?
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@Athena I really like this. May I incorporate it into a little project of my own?
@cory absolutely! Everything on my blog is CC BY-NC-SA by default as noted in the footer and on top of that feel free to use this for whatever purposes you like without restriction (tho I would appreciate [not require] attribution)
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@ShadSterling the given reasoning is “well some people say it’s good so there’s no way to know if it’s really good or bad and we all just have to agree to disagree about the ethics”
@Athena @ShadSterling And "nuanced" always finds its way in to effectively mean "people have valud objections but we've decided to ignore them." If so much nuance is required a flat out ban should be made until a time when a clear, unnuanced answer can be given. Full stop.
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cited as reason to allow LLM contributions experimentally:
Instead of using ethical concerns as a basis for policy, we should justify policy on the basis of how something is impacting our ability as a project to deliver a really great programming language.
if the orphan grinder lets us make a better programming language then FIRE THOSE BABIES UP
@Athena "Can you think of a concrete improvement to the policy that addresses your concern? Consider:
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• Whether your change will make it harder to come to a consensus"Oh, for real? Don't make real improvements if people might disagree? Sounds like a great formula for crafting policy.
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@Athena I am suddenly less interested in their policy on LLMs and more interested in their policy on ethics. Excluding ethical concerns as a basis for policy is what you do when you know your preferred policies are unethical. Any project which accepts such an exclusion should be treated as a threat.
@ShadSterling @Athena This is why communities like #ReactOS that when asked about permissible behavior they merely point at the Rust CoC and I'm like "But how is that interpreted and enforced?"
It looks good on paper, but here is the Rust project itself saying ethics do not drive their decisions.
