Something I find interesting about the way Toby Fox and people that occupy that space handle queerness is the fact that, like, none of their characters are really *queer,* per se.
-
Something I find interesting about the way Toby Fox and people that occupy that space handle queerness is the fact that, like, none of their characters are really *queer,* per se.
Like, in the original sense of the word, I mean. Alphys and Undyne are, in a literal sense, lesbians, but the society in which they exist doesn't view lesbian relationships as strange or abnormal so their love lacks any of the inherent friction of real life same-sex pairings. You could make the Royal Guards a buff4buff straight couple and literally nothing would change.
This is why I feel UTDR has problems depicting transness in any real way. The main character is nonbinary but seemingly they just spawned into the world like that, because actually *showing* transition in the way people experience it requires that friction, something the idyllic post-queerphobic society of Hometown can't handle. -
Something I find interesting about the way Toby Fox and people that occupy that space handle queerness is the fact that, like, none of their characters are really *queer,* per se.
Like, in the original sense of the word, I mean. Alphys and Undyne are, in a literal sense, lesbians, but the society in which they exist doesn't view lesbian relationships as strange or abnormal so their love lacks any of the inherent friction of real life same-sex pairings. You could make the Royal Guards a buff4buff straight couple and literally nothing would change.
This is why I feel UTDR has problems depicting transness in any real way. The main character is nonbinary but seemingly they just spawned into the world like that, because actually *showing* transition in the way people experience it requires that friction, something the idyllic post-queerphobic society of Hometown can't handle.@AppleAmps idk? imo there's SOME evidence that toriel is homophobic in some way, and i've always read kris as explicitly trans(nonbinary), in the same or a similar way to how i and other real people are trans
-
@AppleAmps idk? imo there's SOME evidence that toriel is homophobic in some way, and i've always read kris as explicitly trans(nonbinary), in the same or a similar way to how i and other real people are trans
@shroomie
Frankly the Toriel bit is approaching fanon but either way, that's my point. If Kris was transplanted to our reality they'd obviously be trans because to be where they are they'd have had to transition, but within the text they aren't because they didn't. What I'm talking about here is that the trans experience necessitates transition, a transgression against cispatriarchal social norms. Within a fictional setting where those norms don't exist, and someone really can just spawn in being non-binary, trans-ness isn't a concept that applies. That's also my point with Undyne and Alphys, if they existed on Earth they'd be queer but because within the Underground queer people are treated as straight, their fictional relationship is culturally closer to irl straight pairings than irl gay pairings.
My point is that UTDR has a lot of representation where the character in question is technically gay or trans but not a lot that reflects the experience of being queer. -
@shroomie
Frankly the Toriel bit is approaching fanon but either way, that's my point. If Kris was transplanted to our reality they'd obviously be trans because to be where they are they'd have had to transition, but within the text they aren't because they didn't. What I'm talking about here is that the trans experience necessitates transition, a transgression against cispatriarchal social norms. Within a fictional setting where those norms don't exist, and someone really can just spawn in being non-binary, trans-ness isn't a concept that applies. That's also my point with Undyne and Alphys, if they existed on Earth they'd be queer but because within the Underground queer people are treated as straight, their fictional relationship is culturally closer to irl straight pairings than irl gay pairings.
My point is that UTDR has a lot of representation where the character in question is technically gay or trans but not a lot that reflects the experience of being queer.@shroomie
And you can see this in action! Queer-focused discussions of Deltarune always have to exist within the realm of theories and assumptions: Ralsei is an egg, Toriel and Carol are homophobic, Mancountry represents Kris' transition, because if you stick to what's explicit in the text there aren't any discussions to be had. -
@shroomie
And you can see this in action! Queer-focused discussions of Deltarune always have to exist within the realm of theories and assumptions: Ralsei is an egg, Toriel and Carol are homophobic, Mancountry represents Kris' transition, because if you stick to what's explicit in the text there aren't any discussions to be had. -
R relay@relay.mycrowd.ca shared this topic
-
@shroomie
Frankly the Toriel bit is approaching fanon but either way, that's my point. If Kris was transplanted to our reality they'd obviously be trans because to be where they are they'd have had to transition, but within the text they aren't because they didn't. What I'm talking about here is that the trans experience necessitates transition, a transgression against cispatriarchal social norms. Within a fictional setting where those norms don't exist, and someone really can just spawn in being non-binary, trans-ness isn't a concept that applies. That's also my point with Undyne and Alphys, if they existed on Earth they'd be queer but because within the Underground queer people are treated as straight, their fictional relationship is culturally closer to irl straight pairings than irl gay pairings.
My point is that UTDR has a lot of representation where the character in question is technically gay or trans but not a lot that reflects the experience of being queer.@AppleAmps i mean i don't think kris spawned in being nonbinary
-
@AppleAmps i mean i don't think kris spawned in being nonbinary
@shroomie@seafoam.space @AppleAmps@seafoam.space imean , kinda tho ?? theres no implication in the text that thats not the case . like sure , i love thinking about the game like that too , but . the game flows flawlessly if we assume kris has just been theying from the beginning .
-
@shroomie@seafoam.space @AppleAmps@seafoam.space imean , kinda tho ?? theres no implication in the text that thats not the case . like sure , i love thinking about the game like that too , but . the game flows flawlessly if we assume kris has just been theying from the beginning .
@fiore@brain.worm.pink @AppleAmps idk?? kris being trans is core to how i interpret their character arc
-
@fiore@brain.worm.pink @AppleAmps idk?? kris being trans is core to how i interpret their character arc
@shroomie @fiore
Joan, please read the stuff I've been writing, this is literally what I mean. Just because you can *interpret* a character as being trans doesn't mean they experience transness in the text, literally my main and only point has been about how most people write trans experiences through allegory and letting readers connect the dots instead of doing so explicitly, jesus christ. -
@shroomie @fiore
Joan, please read the stuff I've been writing, this is literally what I mean. Just because you can *interpret* a character as being trans doesn't mean they experience transness in the text, literally my main and only point has been about how most people write trans experiences through allegory and letting readers connect the dots instead of doing so explicitly, jesus christ.@AppleAmps @fiore@brain.worm.pink speaking of thematic analysis i think the point i was trying to get at is that kris experiences transness through their desire for freedom?? idk maybe im just stuck in the interpretation vs text trap again idk im so tired
-
@AppleAmps @fiore@brain.worm.pink speaking of thematic analysis i think the point i was trying to get at is that kris experiences transness through their desire for freedom?? idk maybe im just stuck in the interpretation vs text trap again idk im so tired
@shroomie@seafoam.space @AppleAmps@seafoam.space yes i agree that thats a valid connection
the point tho is that they dont experience actual transness , just a representation for it , thats all . like . they dont get misgendered , invalidated , hatecrimed for their gender presentation , etc
