CIRCLE WITH A DOT

@grahamperrin @TomSeppert @thedarktangent I will note that Discourse has real-time chat, but it's not the primary mode. It's meant for backchannel/off-topic.

@airakose My instance has no AI to speak of. I don't really see how one implies the other.

@admin I would separate marketing hype from product reality. Again, optional modules and nothing doing in self-hosted.

@admin I think you'll find the list refreshingly AI-free. While Discourse has plugins, they are optional and not default.

@cos

The CSAM attacks happened, but moderation tools have taken a big leap since.

I would appreciate links to these new resources. Last I saw, Draupnir was still very much inadequate.

As for server choice, I think Mastodon itself is evidence of what a fussy server selection process can do to adoption.

This reply is written from the perspective of a computer enthusiast. Probably a volunteer sysadmin/self hoster—like me. We cannot be the target for a general alternative.

@mattblaze @hacks4pancakes Utterly unsolicited, but here is where the asymmetry of the media ecosystems between left/right do the left a disservice. The left need not lie to gin up righteous anger and moral outrage about what's happening, and yet: whither the Shapiros, the Kirks of the left? And MSNOW ain't exactly Fox.

The left (for some values of left) seems to have learned that public outrage is a characteristic of the right, and therefore to be avoided. I would much rather it be matched and exceeded with the weight of truth behind it.

@wjmaggos Matrix can be the answer! I was very optimistic, and I still think there's a lot to like. For private communities, I think it's wonderful. The problem arises in large public communities because of the lack of moderation tooling. Without that aspect of the platform, it's simply too dangerous to open the doors to the general internet.

@JessTheUnstill 10000%. Spaces with rooms and moderation features would simply end the alternatives conversation.

@tehfishman I haven't, but I'm keen to.

@shom I have. It's functional, but I wouldn't call it a first-class citizen yet. And as noted elsewhere E2EE is not a feature, so be aware of that.

@gme Ah, but what has a community profited to gain E2EE, only to lose trust and safety? As always, "it depends," but IME a public Matrix server is just courting disaster.

@bretthaines It's very good! And their native federation protocol has entered general availability.

@gme That is not what I'm talking about. When you run a community, moderation is per room, which doesn't scale in the least. The automation via bots like Draupnir is rudimentary at best, and incredibly hamfisted (especially for E2EE). Yes, I can take action on individual users. I cannot prevent attacks usefully at scale. And setting all of the additional tooling up for what does exist is the kind of sysadmin nightmare that Discord successfully abstracted away.

Meanwhile, Discourse has these tools out of the box. They serve different purposes, but I contend that for community building, one is far superior.

@gme I'm not sure what criteria you're using, but for public communities it absolutely is not. The utter lack of moderation capability makes it unsafe for that use case. Private comms? Fine. But that's not really Discord's primary purpose.

@rootwyrm That's true, but the ability to create useful blocklists of terms limits the attacks to one per technique. The lists I have block the vast majority of attempts. If Stoat has that capacity, great.

@rootwyrm

most of Discord's power user moderation tools are reliant on third-party bots or demonstrably ineffective.

As an admin of a 3000+ user server, I strongly disagree. AutoMod is a lifesaver and I can't imagine running a public space without something equivalent.

@rootwyrm Last I checked the moderation tools were still nowhere near adequate, and that is a dealbreaker for me.

@joenash Paternalism as a service: https://discord.com/press-releases/discord-launches-teen-by-default-settings-globally

Let me add that I am keenly aware of the cryptographic issues you are about to bring up about any of these options. I read and deeply respect the work of @soatok and others, and understand the concerns around OMEMO for XMPP, Matrix, etc.

Security is a balance between risk and value. I cannot decide for you what the right balance is, but I know from hard-won experience that building a community is about more than "perfect" security.

Since I wrote this, many have introduced me to movim, and it's pretty slick! I'm still experimenting, but I like a lot of what I see. Still missing moderation tools for groups, though.

Movim – Responsive web-based cross-platform XMPP client

Movim is a kickass distributed blogging and messaging platform built on the industry-standard XMPP protocol

(movim.eu)