NYC: Big fire (4th alarm now) across a church and several multi-unit residential buildings at 12th St and 27th Ave in Astoria.
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So, instead of requiring the dispatcher to figure this out on the fly (which would be impossibly difficult to do well when multiple fires are going on, especially before computers), they figure out the response order for each box in advance.
Each box has a "box card" listing the first due, second alarm, third alarm, and so on responses. Each alarm increment is a contingent of several engine and truck companies. The box card is used to decide who to send when additional alarms are called.
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The box card ordering ensures that there remains some available coverage spread throughout the city when there are large incidents going on. They pre-calculate up to a fifth alarm (at which point there are over 35 engines and trucks operating at the incident). After that, more units can be called in, but the dispatchers have to figure it out on their own.
(9/11 was a fifth alarm, but had many more fire companies than that called in).
7/
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The box card ordering ensures that there remains some available coverage spread throughout the city when there are large incidents going on. They pre-calculate up to a fifth alarm (at which point there are over 35 engines and trucks operating at the incident). After that, more units can be called in, but the dispatchers have to figure it out on their own.
(9/11 was a fifth alarm, but had many more fire companies than that called in).
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Anyway, it's a very interesting and complex real-time systems optimization problem, with lives at stake. And it was solved with 19th century technology, with the basic principles unchanged to this day.
8/8
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Anyway, it's a very interesting and complex real-time systems optimization problem, with lives at stake. And it was solved with 19th century technology, with the basic principles unchanged to this day.
8/8
@mattblaze Thanks!
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Anyway, it's a very interesting and complex real-time systems optimization problem, with lives at stake. And it was solved with 19th century technology, with the basic principles unchanged to this day.
8/8
typo "unhanged" should be "unchanged"
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Anyway, it's a very interesting and complex real-time systems optimization problem, with lives at stake. And it was solved with 19th century technology, with the basic principles unchanged to this day.
8/8
@mattblaze Fascinating, didn't know any of that. Do you know if it is an approach specific to NYC, or something large cities tend to adopt?
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@mattblaze Fascinating, didn't know any of that. Do you know if it is an approach specific to NYC, or something large cities tend to adopt?
@tehstu NYC has always been on the leading edge of this, but other dense cities generally do something similar.
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Anyway, it's a very interesting and complex real-time systems optimization problem, with lives at stake. And it was solved with 19th century technology, with the basic principles unchanged to this day.
8/8
@mattblaze small clarification aside: I assume 'companies' here is a term meaning something similar to 'crew' or 'team', rather than implying some kind of privatised outsourced structure?
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@mattblaze small clarification aside: I assume 'companies' here is a term meaning something similar to 'crew' or 'team', rather than implying some kind of privatised outsourced structure?
@uep Today yes, but it has its roots from the time when there wasn't a single unified fire department in the city.
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The box technology has changed (most surviving ones can do voice communication now), and many of the physical alarm boxes have disappeared, but every location is still associated with a box, which, even if the box isn't there, determines which firehouses are "first due".
When you call 911 today, the fire dispatcher first figures out the box number associated with the location and sends the first due engines and trucks for that box.
3/
@mattblaze Boston's fire boxes are very much still around, and although the backend systems have been computerized for quite a while now, the boxes themselves are still very much a wind-up telegraph inside. As a nice feature, the wiring is entirely independent of the phone and electrical systems, so should there be a major systems outage in one area, the boxes still work. They actually did work last time 911 went down state-wide and someone pulled one out of desperation. Thankfully the news reported on that, and it was promoted enough for people to actually read it and learn those are still actively maintained and monitored...
The fire museum has one of their oldest computers, as well as a disconnected box for people to pull and look inside of. (Well, it's connected to the computer behind it, but not to the actual fire system)
And yes, they still have the manual telegraph key in the box. AFAIK it's only really used for testing stuff these days?
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Anyway, it's a very interesting and complex real-time systems optimization problem, with lives at stake. And it was solved with 19th century technology, with the basic principles unchanged to this day.
8/8
Some terminology: There are two basic kinds of firefighting vehicles: "Engines", which carry hoses and pump water, and "trucks", which have telescoping ladders. Each is crewed by 4 or 5 firefighters. Engines are chiefly responsible for putting out the fire, while trucks are chiefly responsible for rescuing people (and getting access to high floors). In NYC, a "battalion" has a chief that supervises (generally) two engines and one truck
Each additional alarm adds roughly 4 engines and 2 trucks.
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The problem with always dispatching the nearest available fire house is that if there's a large fire somewhere, there won't be nearby available firefighters to respond to *other* fires nearby, requiring the initial response to come from far away.
So they don't always send the nearest available. Instead, they skip over some of them, to ensure maintaining availability near large incidents.
But figuring who best to send next quickly becomes pretty complicated, with multiple contingencies.
5/
@mattblaze
CalFire generally sends the closest units, then has further away units move up to cover empty stations. But California is still not as densely populated as NYC.
With all the mutual aid agreements in place, the cover units will frequently be from another agency. -
@mattblaze
CalFire generally sends the closest units, then has further away units move up to cover empty stations. But California is still not as densely populated as NYC.
With all the mutual aid agreements in place, the cover units will frequently be from another agency.@Dougfir Yeah, this system works in large dense cities (LA and SF, maybe).
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Some terminology: There are two basic kinds of firefighting vehicles: "Engines", which carry hoses and pump water, and "trucks", which have telescoping ladders. Each is crewed by 4 or 5 firefighters. Engines are chiefly responsible for putting out the fire, while trucks are chiefly responsible for rescuing people (and getting access to high floors). In NYC, a "battalion" has a chief that supervises (generally) two engines and one truck
Each additional alarm adds roughly 4 engines and 2 trucks.
@mattblaze This is absolutely fascinating and I'm grateful to you for sharing it. Thank you.
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Anyway, it's a very interesting and complex real-time systems optimization problem, with lives at stake. And it was solved with 19th century technology, with the basic principles unchanged to this day.
8/8
@mattblaze Super cool. Thanks for sharing!
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NYC: Big fire (4th alarm now) across a church and several multi-unit residential buildings at 12th St and 27th Ave in Astoria.
@mattblaze My obsession with nominative determinism makes this thread 100x more fun.
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Anyway, it's a very interesting and complex real-time systems optimization problem, with lives at stake. And it was solved with 19th century technology, with the basic principles unchanged to this day.
8/8
@mattblaze It really is fascinating! I went down this rabbit hole learning about my large suburban FD (Montgomery County MD) and the pre-planning and training is *very* detailed. For each apparatus, once they’re told “you’re the second due” each person (defined by seat) already knows exactly what their initial assignment will be on arrival.
Obviously, very dynamic thereafter. But as they say, plans are useless, but planning is essential.
Nerdsniped.
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@VE2UWY I have that book, somewhere!
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Some terminology: There are two basic kinds of firefighting vehicles: "Engines", which carry hoses and pump water, and "trucks", which have telescoping ladders. Each is crewed by 4 or 5 firefighters. Engines are chiefly responsible for putting out the fire, while trucks are chiefly responsible for rescuing people (and getting access to high floors). In NYC, a "battalion" has a chief that supervises (generally) two engines and one truck
Each additional alarm adds roughly 4 engines and 2 trucks.
I grew up in NYC but only knew part of that. Telegraph and not-nearest for second order responders: yes. Predetermined second order responders and "battalions": no.
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System shared this topic
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@tehstu NYC has always been on the leading edge of this, but other dense cities generally do something similar.
@mattblaze @tehstu I live in a metro area of about 500K, and I hear terms like "box number" and "fast company" on dispatch all the time. I'm guessing this is some simplified version of the system described. They usually just dispatch specific apparatus by name (e.g., Ladder 7, Rescue 4) after that.
I wonder if "fast company" is basically the 'on call' for actual fires and major events.
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@mattblaze @tehstu I live in a metro area of about 500K, and I hear terms like "box number" and "fast company" on dispatch all the time. I'm guessing this is some simplified version of the system described. They usually just dispatch specific apparatus by name (e.g., Ladder 7, Rescue 4) after that.
I wonder if "fast company" is basically the 'on call' for actual fires and major events.
@DarcMoughty @tehstu There's a lot of terminology that varies, but a "FAST" truck is often specially assigned outside the fire building in case other firefighters become trapped and require rescue. It stands for something like Fire (something) Search Team
