What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
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@Linux_in_a_Bit That feels like blackmailing Linux users.
I am using Linux and FreeBSD since 1993 and got help and I offered help a lot.
Rarely I have observed rudeness.
This is stereotyping.
In fact, it took ages until people got the message: I don't fix your Windows computer. I just do not enjoy that. Even then, when a good friend has an issue, I will take a look. But I don't use them every day and don't know all the bells and whistles of MS systems.
@petros If you got started in 1993, and kept using it the whole time, then you were acquiring skills at the same rate as the RTFM jerks the post was about, and therefore, were never the object of the jerks' ire in the first place. So, your experience isn't at all representative for even people who got started in the 2000s, much less people who are getting started today.
Maybe you should read the other replies and believe what relatively-newer users are saying.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit I'm thinking - why not form a group of volunteers who can help configure linux for users? Once its configured with all the software that a user needs, its a breeze to use.
@mahadevank @Linux_in_a_Bit this is a good idea! Like most of the change we want to see in the world, this is an opportunity to organize
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@Linux_in_a_Bit This. People like to waltz around all proud "I'm from the 'RTFM' days, kids these days, grumble grumble" and I'm thinking to myself... the problem ain't the kids...
"I'm tired of answering all these basic (author's note: not as basic as they think) questions. They can just find the answers themselves!" like, okay, then stop complaining on their questions on forums if you're so tired of it.
Or my personal favorite: being a seasoned linux user and needing a quick reminder on how to do something.
First search engine hit is a forum post of someone telling someone else to RTFM. Thanks for wasting mine and everyone's time.@crocodisle @Linux_in_a_Bit seriously, it'd be so much easier to just web search the answer if people stopped ""answering"" with useless comments
Why is it so hard to just scroll past a question they don't want to answer? -
@Linux_in_a_Bit Linux has been plagued, from day one, by an elitist and ableist culture. If you don't understand, you're stupid and you don't deserve to be using it.
Want another feature? Make your own fork. The manual is too hard to understand? Write your own version. Making Linux user friendly is not our job and we don't care.
Mhhm, yeah. Perhaps giving positions of privilege to assholes just because they code well may have not been the best approach.
@yuki2501 @Linux_in_a_Bit @raphaelmorgan
i attempted to use linux about 25 years ago after a bunch of people pushed me to install it. i asked for help to run it and was told if i didnt know how to use it, i shouldnt use it. that literally was the last time i tried to be interested in computers and reallllyyyy DGAF anymore.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit I'm thinking - why not form a group of volunteers who can help configure linux for users? Once its configured with all the software that a user needs, its a breeze to use.
@mahadevank@mastodon.social @Linux_in_a_Bit@infosec.exchange I understand the enthusiasm, but this is what distros are meant to be. Package maintainers extensively test software, package them (and their dependencies) together in a coherent enough way that you can just run
apt install steamand have it pull in all of the dependencies like libsdl2. In my experience, it's not even the people running the distro that are the problem; it's usually community support resources (such as IRC channels, Discord guilds, etc.) in which this mentality runs prevalent. A better "fix" for this would be pushing for distributions to update their code of conduct (and perhaps actually enforce it). We still run into the issue of nobody using the same distro (and therefore these sorts of rules not being universal even when implemented). I don't know the answer, and I don't want this to be seen as dismissive, but I do want to give some context on why we can't just group of volunteers our way out of it. I think it'd require widespread change in the somewhat fragmented existing community. -
@yuki2501 @Linux_in_a_Bit @raphaelmorgan
i attempted to use linux about 25 years ago after a bunch of people pushed me to install it. i asked for help to run it and was told if i didnt know how to use it, i shouldnt use it. that literally was the last time i tried to be interested in computers and reallllyyyy DGAF anymore.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit
There are lot of help tutorials online, but some are not easy to find with google search because advertizing... and the ai sh**
Linux is not hard, one just have to put some effort on learning. Lower the standards as if people is stupid is a bad thing in everything, not only Linux.
And... ArchWiki has very detailed tutorials. I used it to fix things on other distros not related to Arch. Dude!@manuelcaeiro @Linux_in_a_Bit some people just are ""stupid"" though? If I had to just read the manual and that was my only option to use Linux, I'd still be suffering on Windows. People you might consider "stupid" deserve access to free tech too, because liberation shouldn't be reserved for people with a certain amount of "intelligence" or any other white supremacist made up trait (or any real trait either, other than being alive)
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@yuki2501 ngl, i got the same response in most of my engineering classes...which is why i never finished engineering school
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit you’re absolutely right, but the issue is on both sides. There’s a massive culture issue in tech where people are expected to magically know everything, and I think power users can mitigate it in part by being open about what we *don’t* know. The other issue is that volunteers have limited time, so new users do need to try google searching first and try RTFM first. They should be saying “I googled and read the manual and found these things, which I don’t understand. Please explain them to me.” And then power users need to politely explain things *without calling them stupid.*
I wrote a decent bit about this in my blog post Linux for Mere Mortals. https://sudo-nano.github.io/posts/Linux-for-Mere-Mortals/
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@petros If you got started in 1993, and kept using it the whole time, then you were acquiring skills at the same rate as the RTFM jerks the post was about, and therefore, were never the object of the jerks' ire in the first place. So, your experience isn't at all representative for even people who got started in the 2000s, much less people who are getting started today.
Maybe you should read the other replies and believe what relatively-newer users are saying.
I did not stop to be part of the community, so I did not stop to hear and to listen.
Just ignore me, my experience does not count
Anyway, I made the effort to read through the answers, and, that's a mix of everything.
There is a German saying which translates roughly as: When you shout in the woods, it's your echo that you hear.
Have a good day.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit I thought that #UbuntuLinux did quite a good job in doing that, no?
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I did not stop to be part of the community, so I did not stop to hear and to listen.
Just ignore me, my experience does not count
Anyway, I made the effort to read through the answers, and, that's a mix of everything.
There is a German saying which translates roughly as: When you shout in the woods, it's your echo that you hear.
Have a good day.
@petros Thank you for listening
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Yeah, having friends who are linux nerds who will help me pretty much entirely changed my Linux experience
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Who are normal computer users? This is a genuine question. Don't forget that non-normal computer users don't magically know the answers to all your questions. They search, read the ArchWiki, and draw on past experiences.
#linux
Vaguely related; Microsoft pays help desk (or, okay, used to). And for decades most people learned Windows somewhere with paid support of some kind - schools, enterprise contracts.
And it doesn’t FOSS the same way the software does because teaching people doesn’t copy for free. Software’s like a tune, those always spread almost on their own. User education is like learning to play an instrument, that’s just as hard now as it was a hundred years ago.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
After years of using Linux, the main problem is, each solution need to be done in a terminal.
You can't avoid typing command in a terminal. And it's an accessibility problem, if you can't solve without it, you failed at bringing Linux to noobs.
On windows, lot of users don't know there is a terminal.
FYI, I'm in IT since ICQ.
BTW, I won't argue here, cause you know Linux fan boys (not you). -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit I've always done my best to help people become able to help themselves. Show them how to find the information they need, how to search for it. Walk them through applying that information, being there to hold their hand but not lead. Never insult, never put them down.
I've had multiple of them come back to me later because other people were assholes when they just needed a clear answer.
And that's just not right.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit This, 100%. Some help forums are absolutely toxic to new users.
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@deathkitten @CedC go for it, the notion that an LLM has an internal representation of *anything* is, um, crackpot at best tbh
@pikesley @CedC @deathkitten LLM are somewhat essentialization engines, they learns characteristics of what they must reproduce. Those "summarized" characteristics are embodied in embeddings. It is possible to a certain extent to see that as what the LLM "knows".
When you have trained your model, embeddings alone can be valuable as "knowledge" -
@manuelcaeiro @Linux_in_a_Bit some people just are ""stupid"" though? If I had to just read the manual and that was my only option to use Linux, I'd still be suffering on Windows. People you might consider "stupid" deserve access to free tech too, because liberation shouldn't be reserved for people with a certain amount of "intelligence" or any other white supremacist made up trait (or any real trait either, other than being alive)
@raphaelmorgan @Linux_in_a_Bit
Do you understand English?
My sentence reads "Lower the standards as if people is stupid is a bad thing...", which means exactly the opposite.note: if you intend to address me again with false allegations, please don't, because it will the last time you'll do it.
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@raphaelmorgan @Linux_in_a_Bit
Do you understand English?
My sentence reads "Lower the standards as if people is stupid is a bad thing...", which means exactly the opposite.note: if you intend to address me again with false allegations, please don't, because it will the last time you'll do it.
@manuelcaeiro @Linux_in_a_Bit my point is that some of us need those "lower standards". If someone not being able to RTFM and successfully search for everything we need to know makes us stupid, I am stupid and I need us to lower standards as if I am stupid
And allowing only people who aren't "stupid" to use a thing is ableist
