What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
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@Linux_in_a_Bit I think this is called verbal abuse and Linux has a problem with bad management - "a fish starts stinking from the head".
RTFM means Read The Fucking Manual, which is a triple verbal abuse:
1) Ordering, which is verbal abuse (older version of Wikipedia: Verbal abuse)
2) The word "fucking", which is a curse word
3) Abusive anger. The phrase obviously conveys anger. Anger is an emotion which belongs to a situation where someone behaves unfair. But the user asking for help does not behave unfair.Also another problem is that Linux is, in my experience, simply unreliable. When I boot up my computer, sometimes:
1) X doesn't come up, stays in text mode
2) X comes up with the screen at wrong smaller resolution and the picture is in one corner of the screen
3) Mouse doesn't work
4) Keyboard doesn't work
5) Keyboard has wrong repetition rate
6) When inserting a USB peripheral, USB hard disk disconnects and the system crashes
7) Manpages are missing important information
Fails to update between major versions with guarantee of functionality
9) System freezes to a grinding halt instead of managing the RAM resource when RAM demand from programs exceeds RAM size
10) Sound doesn't workAlso I would say 80% of solutions from Google don't work and 40% of them don't work and screw up your system and don't contain information how to reverse the changes after you did them and realized they don't work.
Asking "Have you tried Google?" is like a car mechanic asking a customer "have you tried unauthorized, possibly irreversibly damaging tampering with your engine according to the advice of a random, likely incompetent, bystander?"
Also another problem is that Linux is, in my experience, simply unreliable.
I don't know what distributive and hardware you're using, but I can't even imagine what needs to be done for Linux to work the way you described. I have two old laptops from the 2010s at home running Debian and AntiX. They have been working for many years with uptimes of 2 to 4 months without a single failure, and they only shut down when I leave for 10 and more days. -
Also another problem is that Linux is, in my experience, simply unreliable.
I don't know what distributive and hardware you're using, but I can't even imagine what needs to be done for Linux to work the way you described. I have two old laptops from the 2010s at home running Debian and AntiX. They have been working for many years with uptimes of 2 to 4 months without a single failure, and they only shut down when I leave for 10 and more days.@wthinker @Linux_in_a_Bit The fact that Linux happens to work for one person (you) in one specific situation (your use scenario) doesn't imply Linux is reliable.
The fact that Linux fails for one person (me) in one use scenario (mine) implies that Linux is unreliable.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit That feels like blackmailing Linux users.
I am using Linux and FreeBSD since 1993 and got help and I offered help a lot.
Rarely I have observed rudeness.
This is stereotyping.
In fact, it took ages until people got the message: I don't fix your Windows computer. I just do not enjoy that. Even then, when a good friend has an issue, I will take a look. But I don't use them every day and don't know all the bells and whistles of MS systems.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Yup, getting Linux help is mostly terrible.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit While I agree with all that, it is then again equally annoying when those "noobs" either want to go directly into customizing/theming/"ricing" (hate that word) within the first 24 hours they are using their distro and are frustrated when this involves more than "double-clicking" an *.exe. on the other hand a lot of people REALLY try hard to find ways to make everything as close as possible to win7/10/11 as possible which will also fail in the long run
@Slacker @Linux_in_a_Bit
Ok, here's my latest: Debian Trixie XFCE, I
recently relocated it, and now use my TV as the monitor. Now, whenever I switch the TV to the HDMI input the computer is attached to, the Display Settings dialog pops up for a "new monitor" (which it actually misidentifies, but selects the 'correct' default resolution).IMHO, the dialog should time out and close, but since it won't, I select accept/ok to dismiss it, but it recurs the next time the TV input is selected.
Good luck searching for that, let alone solve it (I do have something to try, but am often stymied when the solution is several years old, and that setting no longer exists, or has been subsumed into systemd, or whatever).
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@Linux_in_a_Bit not true anymore.
With AI integrated in most search engine, you often get the right response from it.
One of the few benefits of AI is that it can basically customise the documentation to make it sensible to you. It becomes a kind of live documentation.A simple how to fix … on [distro name] works 95% of the time in my experience.
@CedC @Linux_in_a_Bit and the other great thing (/s) about those answers is that they have no responsibility or safeguards to stick to the truth, so it's always a fun little gambling game of "will this work, do nothing, or brick my device?"
So much better than asking real people who actually know about a thing and can give you an accurate and nuanced answer! -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
i have trouble to believe this is much different from the experience in a mainstream win or apple help forum…
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@Linux_in_a_Bit Offer to pay for it maybe vOv
I hear you. I've been frustrated too. But you're asking people to share expertise for free when they honestly have already shared a whole crap ton of it.
Maybe people who can't understand that should stick to the proprietary platforms who are willing to monetize your soul as collateral instead.
@crazyeddie @Linux_in_a_Bit this isn't a demand, it's a suggestion. If we want more people using Linux, we have to help them. If we don't want to help them, we have to accept that most people will not use Linux. There's a choice here, we just can't expect that everyone is going to learn how to use it without help. And you can feel free to ignore every question, and that'll still have a better effect than replying to complain or belittle people. Those of us with something nice to say can answer
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@Linux_in_a_Bit That feels like blackmailing Linux users.
I am using Linux and FreeBSD since 1993 and got help and I offered help a lot.
Rarely I have observed rudeness.
This is stereotyping.
In fact, it took ages until people got the message: I don't fix your Windows computer. I just do not enjoy that. Even then, when a good friend has an issue, I will take a look. But I don't use them every day and don't know all the bells and whistles of MS systems.
@petros If you got started in 1993, and kept using it the whole time, then you were acquiring skills at the same rate as the RTFM jerks the post was about, and therefore, were never the object of the jerks' ire in the first place. So, your experience isn't at all representative for even people who got started in the 2000s, much less people who are getting started today.
Maybe you should read the other replies and believe what relatively-newer users are saying.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit I'm thinking - why not form a group of volunteers who can help configure linux for users? Once its configured with all the software that a user needs, its a breeze to use.
@mahadevank @Linux_in_a_Bit this is a good idea! Like most of the change we want to see in the world, this is an opportunity to organize
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@Linux_in_a_Bit This. People like to waltz around all proud "I'm from the 'RTFM' days, kids these days, grumble grumble" and I'm thinking to myself... the problem ain't the kids...
"I'm tired of answering all these basic (author's note: not as basic as they think) questions. They can just find the answers themselves!" like, okay, then stop complaining on their questions on forums if you're so tired of it.
Or my personal favorite: being a seasoned linux user and needing a quick reminder on how to do something.
First search engine hit is a forum post of someone telling someone else to RTFM. Thanks for wasting mine and everyone's time.@crocodisle @Linux_in_a_Bit seriously, it'd be so much easier to just web search the answer if people stopped ""answering"" with useless comments
Why is it so hard to just scroll past a question they don't want to answer? -
@Linux_in_a_Bit Linux has been plagued, from day one, by an elitist and ableist culture. If you don't understand, you're stupid and you don't deserve to be using it.
Want another feature? Make your own fork. The manual is too hard to understand? Write your own version. Making Linux user friendly is not our job and we don't care.
Mhhm, yeah. Perhaps giving positions of privilege to assholes just because they code well may have not been the best approach.
@yuki2501 @Linux_in_a_Bit @raphaelmorgan
i attempted to use linux about 25 years ago after a bunch of people pushed me to install it. i asked for help to run it and was told if i didnt know how to use it, i shouldnt use it. that literally was the last time i tried to be interested in computers and reallllyyyy DGAF anymore.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit I'm thinking - why not form a group of volunteers who can help configure linux for users? Once its configured with all the software that a user needs, its a breeze to use.
@mahadevank@mastodon.social @Linux_in_a_Bit@infosec.exchange I understand the enthusiasm, but this is what distros are meant to be. Package maintainers extensively test software, package them (and their dependencies) together in a coherent enough way that you can just run
apt install steamand have it pull in all of the dependencies like libsdl2. In my experience, it's not even the people running the distro that are the problem; it's usually community support resources (such as IRC channels, Discord guilds, etc.) in which this mentality runs prevalent. A better "fix" for this would be pushing for distributions to update their code of conduct (and perhaps actually enforce it). We still run into the issue of nobody using the same distro (and therefore these sorts of rules not being universal even when implemented). I don't know the answer, and I don't want this to be seen as dismissive, but I do want to give some context on why we can't just group of volunteers our way out of it. I think it'd require widespread change in the somewhat fragmented existing community. -
@yuki2501 @Linux_in_a_Bit @raphaelmorgan
i attempted to use linux about 25 years ago after a bunch of people pushed me to install it. i asked for help to run it and was told if i didnt know how to use it, i shouldnt use it. that literally was the last time i tried to be interested in computers and reallllyyyy DGAF anymore.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit
There are lot of help tutorials online, but some are not easy to find with google search because advertizing... and the ai sh**
Linux is not hard, one just have to put some effort on learning. Lower the standards as if people is stupid is a bad thing in everything, not only Linux.
And... ArchWiki has very detailed tutorials. I used it to fix things on other distros not related to Arch. Dude!@manuelcaeiro @Linux_in_a_Bit some people just are ""stupid"" though? If I had to just read the manual and that was my only option to use Linux, I'd still be suffering on Windows. People you might consider "stupid" deserve access to free tech too, because liberation shouldn't be reserved for people with a certain amount of "intelligence" or any other white supremacist made up trait (or any real trait either, other than being alive)
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@yuki2501 ngl, i got the same response in most of my engineering classes...which is why i never finished engineering school
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit you’re absolutely right, but the issue is on both sides. There’s a massive culture issue in tech where people are expected to magically know everything, and I think power users can mitigate it in part by being open about what we *don’t* know. The other issue is that volunteers have limited time, so new users do need to try google searching first and try RTFM first. They should be saying “I googled and read the manual and found these things, which I don’t understand. Please explain them to me.” And then power users need to politely explain things *without calling them stupid.*
I wrote a decent bit about this in my blog post Linux for Mere Mortals. https://sudo-nano.github.io/posts/Linux-for-Mere-Mortals/
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@petros If you got started in 1993, and kept using it the whole time, then you were acquiring skills at the same rate as the RTFM jerks the post was about, and therefore, were never the object of the jerks' ire in the first place. So, your experience isn't at all representative for even people who got started in the 2000s, much less people who are getting started today.
Maybe you should read the other replies and believe what relatively-newer users are saying.
I did not stop to be part of the community, so I did not stop to hear and to listen.
Just ignore me, my experience does not count
Anyway, I made the effort to read through the answers, and, that's a mix of everything.
There is a German saying which translates roughly as: When you shout in the woods, it's your echo that you hear.
Have a good day.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit I thought that #UbuntuLinux did quite a good job in doing that, no?
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I did not stop to be part of the community, so I did not stop to hear and to listen.
Just ignore me, my experience does not count
Anyway, I made the effort to read through the answers, and, that's a mix of everything.
There is a German saying which translates roughly as: When you shout in the woods, it's your echo that you hear.
Have a good day.
@petros Thank you for listening
