What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit I even changed distros several times in the past to anticipate problems that new users may have with it so I can assist them. But it was usually people I know, not strangers in forums, so maybe that was the problem. That the kind of people sticking around forums were mostly assholes.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit there is another point I would like to stress as versatile Linux user: the ergonomics are a catastrophe on Linux.
E.g., on #Debian you have to click on completely unrelated icons to find the Button for shutting down the machine. Some distros even disallow this and you need to be sudo to even have the possibility to achieve this. No one supports hibernation anymore. Every time I test a Debian derivative I have one WTF moment after the other.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit there is another point I would like to stress as versatile Linux user: the ergonomics are a catastrophe on Linux.
E.g., on #Debian you have to click on completely unrelated icons to find the Button for shutting down the machine. Some distros even disallow this and you need to be sudo to even have the possibility to achieve this. No one supports hibernation anymore. Every time I test a Debian derivative I have one WTF moment after the other.
@Linux_in_a_Bit The whole system is designed around its maintainers, little nerds who are used to a certain amount of brainfuck and
to man pages without examples.A user-centric , what-can-I-do-here approach is not even considered.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit there is another point I would like to stress as versatile Linux user: the ergonomics are a catastrophe on Linux.
E.g., on #Debian you have to click on completely unrelated icons to find the Button for shutting down the machine. Some distros even disallow this and you need to be sudo to even have the possibility to achieve this. No one supports hibernation anymore. Every time I test a Debian derivative I have one WTF moment after the other.
@markuswerle @Linux_in_a_Bit actually you can do these things in Debian Linux e.g I have a separate button on my top bar to access quit, restart, suspend, hibernate, using sudoers although these days suspend doesn't properly any more, but hibernate still does, but it was very much up to me as the user to set this up myself or to find a Debian variant that already does exactly what I wanted.
When I used Mint it mostly worked out of the box so I could recommend it to newbies, whilst remaining configurable, but then it got the systemd cancer so now I use Devuan. -
@markuswerle @Linux_in_a_Bit actually you can do these things in Debian Linux e.g I have a separate button on my top bar to access quit, restart, suspend, hibernate, using sudoers although these days suspend doesn't properly any more, but hibernate still does, but it was very much up to me as the user to set this up myself or to find a Debian variant that already does exactly what I wanted.
When I used Mint it mostly worked out of the box so I could recommend it to newbies, whilst remaining configurable, but then it got the systemd cancer so now I use Devuan.@marjolica @Linux_in_a_Bit the point is: you can do everything on Linux and I am 10 x more productive on that platform, but the simplest things get in your way. And what exactly drove Debian developers to hide the shutdown button?
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@heri @Linux_in_a_Bit The fact that 1 out of 500 Linux distros happened to work as expected for short time ("recently") in your particular scenario doesn't help the other users for which it doesn't work.
A product is reliable when it works reliable for everyone in any scenario, not just for one person in one scenario.
Yes of course. I do not want to mention all the struggles I had with Windows (working with it since Win3.11 in the early 90ties, as professonal programmer). Suddenly from one day to another something does not work anymore, or different than yesterday, especially when migrating to a new OS version. And finding help for windows? Puhhh!!!!?!
Nowadays the AI can support you quiet well in computer technical problems. Especially the french mistral ai seems to be very good. This is valid for windows AND linux.
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@marjolica @Linux_in_a_Bit the point is: you can do everything on Linux and I am 10 x more productive on that platform, but the simplest things get in your way. And what exactly drove Debian developers to hide the shutdown button?
@Linux_in_a_Bit @markuswerle just to clarify, which display manager are you using? It's the display manager where you configure this (or accept whatever is the default). You have a choice of display manager if you use Debian (or most other linux distributions for that matter). I use Cinnamon, others use Gnome or KDE or XFCE or other alternatives.
So you have choices. In this respect desktop Linux is to the Windows or Apple desktops much like the #Fediverse is to Facebook or X. But yes it can be confusing. -
@GoodNewsGreyShoes @drdirtbag @Linux_in_a_Bit @aud
I suspect most computer users today would be amazed to learn that Microsoft Word and Excel originally came with manuals. Not only that, the manuals were actually pretty good.@brouhaha I am surprised to hear both of those things, & would love to see a photo of you still have one!
(note: I desire a photo not for proof, as I've no doubt you're telling the truth, but simply because I'd love to see about how big/detailed of a manual they were. Like, book sized? Leaflet? Notepad?
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@GoodNewsGreyShoes@mastodon.art @brouhaha@mastodon.social @drdirtbag@mountains.social @Linux_in_a_Bit@infosec.exchange and you know, I think a lot of us aren't even used to there BEING an available manual. I'm used to it NOW, sort of, but when I compare the manuals that come with modern devices and software ("plug in" or "reboot") compared with ones for earlier devices ("here is how to deconstruct and reconstruct each piece of the device in explicit detail, combined with part numbers and specifications for individual parts")... let's just say it took me a while to get used to the idea that the manual had any value.
@aud
️THHIIIIISSSSSS THIS YES THIS!
Ask any IT about their first steps when troubleshooting (generally, not for some specific issue) & I'd be astonished if any of their first 5 suggestions mention a manual.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit Linux has been plagued, from day one, by an elitist and ableist culture. If you don't understand, you're stupid and you don't deserve to be using it.
Want another feature? Make your own fork. The manual is too hard to understand? Write your own version. Making Linux user friendly is not our job and we don't care.
Mhhm, yeah. Perhaps giving positions of privilege to assholes just because they code well may have not been the best approach.
@yuki2501 @Linux_in_a_Bit
I am not happy to say, but a quite similar behaviour can be oberserved in very different communities (entirely non tech) as wellIt appears as a more general pattern of elitism "we have spent years of work to be there, we dont spoonfed you"
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@Linux_in_a_Bit I think this is called verbal abuse and Linux has a problem with bad management - "a fish starts stinking from the head".
RTFM means Read The Fucking Manual, which is a triple verbal abuse:
1) Ordering, which is verbal abuse (older version of Wikipedia: Verbal abuse)
2) The word "fucking", which is a curse word
3) Abusive anger. The phrase obviously conveys anger. Anger is an emotion which belongs to a situation where someone behaves unfair. But the user asking for help does not behave unfair.Also another problem is that Linux is, in my experience, simply unreliable. When I boot up my computer, sometimes:
1) X doesn't come up, stays in text mode
2) X comes up with the screen at wrong smaller resolution and the picture is in one corner of the screen
3) Mouse doesn't work
4) Keyboard doesn't work
5) Keyboard has wrong repetition rate
6) When inserting a USB peripheral, USB hard disk disconnects and the system crashes
7) Manpages are missing important information
Fails to update between major versions with guarantee of functionality
9) System freezes to a grinding halt instead of managing the RAM resource when RAM demand from programs exceeds RAM size
10) Sound doesn't workAlso I would say 80% of solutions from Google don't work and 40% of them don't work and screw up your system and don't contain information how to reverse the changes after you did them and realized they don't work.
Asking "Have you tried Google?" is like a car mechanic asking a customer "have you tried unauthorized, possibly irreversibly damaging tampering with your engine according to the advice of a random, likely incompetent, bystander?"
Also another problem is that Linux is, in my experience, simply unreliable.
I don't know what distributive and hardware you're using, but I can't even imagine what needs to be done for Linux to work the way you described. I have two old laptops from the 2010s at home running Debian and AntiX. They have been working for many years with uptimes of 2 to 4 months without a single failure, and they only shut down when I leave for 10 and more days. -
Also another problem is that Linux is, in my experience, simply unreliable.
I don't know what distributive and hardware you're using, but I can't even imagine what needs to be done for Linux to work the way you described. I have two old laptops from the 2010s at home running Debian and AntiX. They have been working for many years with uptimes of 2 to 4 months without a single failure, and they only shut down when I leave for 10 and more days.@wthinker @Linux_in_a_Bit The fact that Linux happens to work for one person (you) in one specific situation (your use scenario) doesn't imply Linux is reliable.
The fact that Linux fails for one person (me) in one use scenario (mine) implies that Linux is unreliable.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit That feels like blackmailing Linux users.
I am using Linux and FreeBSD since 1993 and got help and I offered help a lot.
Rarely I have observed rudeness.
This is stereotyping.
In fact, it took ages until people got the message: I don't fix your Windows computer. I just do not enjoy that. Even then, when a good friend has an issue, I will take a look. But I don't use them every day and don't know all the bells and whistles of MS systems.
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What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
@Linux_in_a_Bit Yup, getting Linux help is mostly terrible.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit While I agree with all that, it is then again equally annoying when those "noobs" either want to go directly into customizing/theming/"ricing" (hate that word) within the first 24 hours they are using their distro and are frustrated when this involves more than "double-clicking" an *.exe. on the other hand a lot of people REALLY try hard to find ways to make everything as close as possible to win7/10/11 as possible which will also fail in the long run
@Slacker @Linux_in_a_Bit
Ok, here's my latest: Debian Trixie XFCE, I
recently relocated it, and now use my TV as the monitor. Now, whenever I switch the TV to the HDMI input the computer is attached to, the Display Settings dialog pops up for a "new monitor" (which it actually misidentifies, but selects the 'correct' default resolution).IMHO, the dialog should time out and close, but since it won't, I select accept/ok to dismiss it, but it recurs the next time the TV input is selected.
Good luck searching for that, let alone solve it (I do have something to try, but am often stymied when the solution is several years old, and that setting no longer exists, or has been subsumed into systemd, or whatever).
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@Linux_in_a_Bit not true anymore.
With AI integrated in most search engine, you often get the right response from it.
One of the few benefits of AI is that it can basically customise the documentation to make it sensible to you. It becomes a kind of live documentation.A simple how to fix … on [distro name] works 95% of the time in my experience.
@CedC @Linux_in_a_Bit and the other great thing (/s) about those answers is that they have no responsibility or safeguards to stick to the truth, so it's always a fun little gambling game of "will this work, do nothing, or brick my device?"
So much better than asking real people who actually know about a thing and can give you an accurate and nuanced answer! -
What's the most common complaint I've heard about Linux?
Not the installation process.
Not finding a distro.
Not getting programs to work.
Not troubleshooting.
Not hardware compatibility.The most common complaint about Linux I've seen is this:
For a normal computer user, asking for help is just about impossible.They ask a simple question and:
People respond "Did you Google it?"
People complain that the question wasn't asked "correctly".
People respond "RTFM"
People get mad??? at them for making an easy mistake.We can't expect normal people to know to, or even know how to deal with any of that stuff.
Search engines these days are awful, manuals are hard to read for most people (especially stuff like ArchWiki), and normal people make mistakes we think are easily avoidable.
The solution to making Linux more popular is not ruthless promotion. The solution is to actually help the people who are trying to use it.
i have trouble to believe this is much different from the experience in a mainstream win or apple help forum…
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@Linux_in_a_Bit Offer to pay for it maybe vOv
I hear you. I've been frustrated too. But you're asking people to share expertise for free when they honestly have already shared a whole crap ton of it.
Maybe people who can't understand that should stick to the proprietary platforms who are willing to monetize your soul as collateral instead.
@crazyeddie @Linux_in_a_Bit this isn't a demand, it's a suggestion. If we want more people using Linux, we have to help them. If we don't want to help them, we have to accept that most people will not use Linux. There's a choice here, we just can't expect that everyone is going to learn how to use it without help. And you can feel free to ignore every question, and that'll still have a better effect than replying to complain or belittle people. Those of us with something nice to say can answer
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@Linux_in_a_Bit That feels like blackmailing Linux users.
I am using Linux and FreeBSD since 1993 and got help and I offered help a lot.
Rarely I have observed rudeness.
This is stereotyping.
In fact, it took ages until people got the message: I don't fix your Windows computer. I just do not enjoy that. Even then, when a good friend has an issue, I will take a look. But I don't use them every day and don't know all the bells and whistles of MS systems.
@petros If you got started in 1993, and kept using it the whole time, then you were acquiring skills at the same rate as the RTFM jerks the post was about, and therefore, were never the object of the jerks' ire in the first place. So, your experience isn't at all representative for even people who got started in the 2000s, much less people who are getting started today.
Maybe you should read the other replies and believe what relatively-newer users are saying.
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@Linux_in_a_Bit I'm thinking - why not form a group of volunteers who can help configure linux for users? Once its configured with all the software that a user needs, its a breeze to use.
@mahadevank @Linux_in_a_Bit this is a good idea! Like most of the change we want to see in the world, this is an opportunity to organize
