@screwlisp is having some site connectivity problems so asked me to remind everyone that we'll be on the anonradio forum at the top of the hour (a bit less than ten minutes hence) for those who like that kind of thing:
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@kentpitman @dougmerritt @ramin_hal9001 @screwlisp @cdegroot
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe '~' was prevalant in Emacs source, or I'm conflating TECO with Something Else.
By my era VT-52s were gone, you'd occasionally see a VT100 in a server room for not wanting to waste $$ there, the terminal of choice at Stanford CS was the Heathkit-19 + if you were in one of the well-financed research groups, you got a Sun-1 or a Sun-2. At DEC(WSL) where I interned, it was all personal VAXstations.
I do recall Emacs ^S and ^Q being problematic due to terminal mode occasionally getting set badly (and then the underlying hardware would wake up, "Oh, flow control! I know how to do that!", ^S would freeze everything and you had to Just Know to do ^Q...)
@wrog
This seems familiar, but I'm not wholly sure why.It is binary 01111110 and as such really did show up in some line noise contexts that favored such a thing (it's similar to 11111111).
It's also used by vi to mark nonexistent lines at the end of the file; Bill wanted it to be something other than just nothing on that screen line, for specificity of feedback to the user.
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@kentpitman @dougmerritt @ramin_hal9001 @screwlisp @cdegroot
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe '~' was prevalant in Emacs source, or I'm conflating TECO with Something Else.
By my era VT-52s were gone, you'd occasionally see a VT100 in a server room for not wanting to waste $$ there, the terminal of choice at Stanford CS was the Heathkit-19 + if you were in one of the well-financed research groups, you got a Sun-1 or a Sun-2. At DEC(WSL) where I interned, it was all personal VAXstations.
I do recall Emacs ^S and ^Q being problematic due to terminal mode occasionally getting set badly (and then the underlying hardware would wake up, "Oh, flow control! I know how to do that!", ^S would freeze everything and you had to Just Know to do ^Q...)
@kentpitman @dougmerritt @ramin_hal9001 @screwlisp @cdegroot
> I also recall '~' being an important character
ok, I seem to be out-to-lunch on this
(or at least, remembering Something Else; but I can't imagine what...):https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/teco/emacs11/emacs11.tec
(admittedly, this is VAX/PDP-11 TECO source for Emacs and maybe Fred had to do a complete rewrite of some sort and the actual TOPS20/PDP-10 source is completely different -- given that there *is* significant dependence on wordsize and other architectural issues, it would have to be *somewhat* different -- but I'd still expect a lot of common code [unless there were copyright issues]).
It *does* definitely look like line noise, though.
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@screwlisp
Well there you go. So wrog just needs to find a list of such clients to choose the most suitable one -- if any.@dougmerritt @screwlisp @kentpitman @ramin_hal9001 @cdegroot
what I *currently* do is compose inside Emacs (the *only* non-painful alternative for long posts),
then manually decide how I'm going to break it up -- which actually has some literary content to it, because in some cases, you *do* want to arrange the breaks for maximal dramatic effect
(generalized How to Use Paragraphs)Problem 1 being that emacs doesn't count characters the same way as mastodon does, and I don't find out until I've cut&pasted part n, which doesn't happen until I've already posted parts 1..n−1
Problem 2 being having to cut&paste in the first place when I should just be able to hit SEND (which then has to be from within emacs).
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@dougmerritt @screwlisp @kentpitman @ramin_hal9001 @cdegroot
what I *currently* do is compose inside Emacs (the *only* non-painful alternative for long posts),
then manually decide how I'm going to break it up -- which actually has some literary content to it, because in some cases, you *do* want to arrange the breaks for maximal dramatic effect
(generalized How to Use Paragraphs)Problem 1 being that emacs doesn't count characters the same way as mastodon does, and I don't find out until I've cut&pasted part n, which doesn't happen until I've already posted parts 1..n−1
Problem 2 being having to cut&paste in the first place when I should just be able to hit SEND (which then has to be from within emacs).
@dougmerritt @screwlisp @kentpitman @ramin_hal9001 @cdegroot
given that I once-upon-a-time wrote a MAPI client for the sake of being able to post to Microsoft Exchange forums in rich text using courier font, in theory, I should be able to do this.
... but that would mean I'd have to Learn Fediverse. crap.
hmm. Anyone have experience with
mastodon.el
mastodon.el - Emacs client for fediverse servers that implement the Mastodon API.
Codeberg.org (codeberg.org)
i.e., is the best one or if this just Guy Who Grabbed the Name first and did the best SEO twigging? (I hate that google search has gotten so enshittified)
(also, thanks, LazyWeb!)
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@dougmerritt @kentpitman @ramin_hal9001 @screwlisp @cdegroot
(I'm guessing a mastodon UI that actually respects the use of surreal numbers to number multipost components and rearranges threads accordingly will be implemented approximately never.
… though I suppose it could turn out to be one of the more creative ways to get kicked off of the Fediverse … )
(𝜔/2)/11
@wrog
I support your right to free expression.
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@kentpitman @dougmerritt @wrog @ramin_hal9001 @screwlisp @cdegroot
Yes, right. To all that. One minor point is that the PDP-6/10 had a byte-addressing instruction that was pretty weird (overkill in flexibility, like every PDP-6/10 instruction). So that data packing wasn't all that unreasonable.
I showed up to the TECO world in Jan. 1973 with a gofer programming gig in the Macsyma group. The Datapoint terminals were already there, so I missed the pre-(almost)WYSIWYG days.
@djl
Lucky you; I went through teletypes, and then glass terminals lacking cursor control, before finally being in an environment with cursor control terminals capable of WYSIWYG -- and at that, it was pretty random back then who had heard the pro-WYSIWYG arguments and who had not, so... -
@djl
Lucky you; I went through teletypes, and then glass terminals lacking cursor control, before finally being in an environment with cursor control terminals capable of WYSIWYG -- and at that, it was pretty random back then who had heard the pro-WYSIWYG arguments and who had not, so...@dougmerritt @djl @wrog @ramin_hal9001 @screwlisp @cdegroot
For those looking on who might not know these terms, teletypes had paper feeding through and mostly did only output that was left-to-right and then fed that line and then did not back up ever to a previous line. They were also loud and clunky, mostly, and had keyboards that had keys you had to press way down in order to get them to take.
Glass terminals were displays that could only do output to the bottom line of the screen, kind of like a paper terminal but without the paper. Once it scrolled up, you couldn't generally scroll back down. But that's why it might sound like it would have cursor control but did not yet.
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@djl
Lucky you; I went through teletypes, and then glass terminals lacking cursor control, before finally being in an environment with cursor control terminals capable of WYSIWYG -- and at that, it was pretty random back then who had heard the pro-WYSIWYG arguments and who had not, so...@dougmerritt @kentpitman @wrog @ramin_hal9001 @screwlisp @cdegroot
Yes. I missed the teletype round. Sort of. Father was site engineer for one of the early LINC 8 installations, and later a PDP-7 installation, and they had teletypes. They.Were.Horrid.
Peter Belmont (later Ada developer) tried to persuade me to do programming, but I was busy doing other things. The IBM card puches had really sweet keyboards, though.
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@dougmerritt @djl @wrog @ramin_hal9001 @screwlisp @cdegroot
For those looking on who might not know these terms, teletypes had paper feeding through and mostly did only output that was left-to-right and then fed that line and then did not back up ever to a previous line. They were also loud and clunky, mostly, and had keyboards that had keys you had to press way down in order to get them to take.
Glass terminals were displays that could only do output to the bottom line of the screen, kind of like a paper terminal but without the paper. Once it scrolled up, you couldn't generally scroll back down. But that's why it might sound like it would have cursor control but did not yet.
@kentpitman
Yes, and to clarify your final two sentences, the *display* scrolled up with each additional line emitted -- the *cursor* could never scroll up.In my environment at Berkeley, these were Lear Siegler ADM 3 terminals. The slightly later ADM 3a terminals finally allowed the cursor to be moved around at will (although they didn't have any fancier abilities, unlike still later devices).
Thanks for thinking to explain what I did not.
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@dougmerritt @djl @wrog @ramin_hal9001 @screwlisp @cdegroot
For those looking on who might not know these terms, teletypes had paper feeding through and mostly did only output that was left-to-right and then fed that line and then did not back up ever to a previous line. They were also loud and clunky, mostly, and had keyboards that had keys you had to press way down in order to get them to take.
Glass terminals were displays that could only do output to the bottom line of the screen, kind of like a paper terminal but without the paper. Once it scrolled up, you couldn't generally scroll back down. But that's why it might sound like it would have cursor control but did not yet.
@kentpitman @dougmerritt @wrog @ramin_hal9001 @screwlisp @cdegroot
The datapoint terminals were _almost_ wysiwyg: they didn't have a cursor, so the TECO of the time inserted "/\" in the text displayed, and you could insert text there, delete the next character and the like.
But TECO allowed you to change the "/\" to whatever you liked, so if you left your terminal, someone would change that to "/\Foo is loser" and Foo wouldn't be able to delete that text from Foo's file...
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@djl
Lucky you; I went through teletypes, and then glass terminals lacking cursor control, before finally being in an environment with cursor control terminals capable of WYSIWYG -- and at that, it was pretty random back then who had heard the pro-WYSIWYG arguments and who had not, so...@dougmerritt @kentpitman @wrog @ramin_hal9001 @screwlisp @cdegroot
I've been through 17 or so environments, and I was always able to find an editor that could be persuaded to act the way I wanted: CCA, NEC, AT&T and even Word for MS-DOS.
Hilariously, Word for Windows defeated me. There was no way to persuade it to act as a civilized text editor, so I acquired the source code to WordPad and implemented my usual TECO macros in C++, and used that for 20 years or so.
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@dougmerritt @kentpitman @wrog @ramin_hal9001 @screwlisp @cdegroot
I've been through 17 or so environments, and I was always able to find an editor that could be persuaded to act the way I wanted: CCA, NEC, AT&T and even Word for MS-DOS.
Hilariously, Word for Windows defeated me. There was no way to persuade it to act as a civilized text editor, so I acquired the source code to WordPad and implemented my usual TECO macros in C++, and used that for 20 years or so.
@djl
Hey, you want what you want.Also: spoken like a true hacker. "I will bend the universe (of computing) to my will!"
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@dougmerritt @screwlisp @kentpitman @ramin_hal9001 @cdegroot
given that I once-upon-a-time wrote a MAPI client for the sake of being able to post to Microsoft Exchange forums in rich text using courier font, in theory, I should be able to do this.
... but that would mean I'd have to Learn Fediverse. crap.
hmm. Anyone have experience with
mastodon.el
mastodon.el - Emacs client for fediverse servers that implement the Mastodon API.
Codeberg.org (codeberg.org)
i.e., is the best one or if this just Guy Who Grabbed the Name first and did the best SEO twigging? (I hate that google search has gotten so enshittified)
(also, thanks, LazyWeb!)
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@screwlisp @mousebot @dougmerritt @kentpitman @ramin_hal9001 @cdegroot
yay, actual experience, actual review.
thanks. -
@screwlisp @mousebot @dougmerritt @kentpitman @ramin_hal9001 @cdegroot
yay, actual experience, actual review.
thanks.@wrog @cdegroot @ramin_hal9001 @kentpitman @dougmerritt @screwlisp unforch mastodon.el hasn't yet implemented chaining of new toots. if someone wants to add it though, by all means. (the issue has been raised before, but as usual no one was willing to get their hands dirty.)
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@wrog @cdegroot @ramin_hal9001 @kentpitman @dougmerritt @screwlisp unforch mastodon.el hasn't yet implemented chaining of new toots. if someone wants to add it though, by all means. (the issue has been raised before, but as usual no one was willing to get their hands dirty.)
@mousebot
So sorry for the mistake T_T
@wrog @cdegroot @ramin_hal9001 @kentpitman @dougmerritt -
@mousebot
So sorry for the mistake T_T
@wrog @cdegroot @ramin_hal9001 @kentpitman @dougmerritt@screwlisp
Seems like the universe is calling on you to fix it! -
@kentpitman @dougmerritt @ramin_hal9001 @screwlisp @cdegroot
> I also recall '~' being an important character
ok, I seem to be out-to-lunch on this
(or at least, remembering Something Else; but I can't imagine what...):https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/teco/emacs11/emacs11.tec
(admittedly, this is VAX/PDP-11 TECO source for Emacs and maybe Fred had to do a complete rewrite of some sort and the actual TOPS20/PDP-10 source is completely different -- given that there *is* significant dependence on wordsize and other architectural issues, it would have to be *somewhat* different -- but I'd still expect a lot of common code [unless there were copyright issues]).
It *does* definitely look like line noise, though.
"I do recall Emacs ^S and ^Q being problematic due to terminal mode occasionally getting set badly (and then the underlying hardware would wake up, "Oh, flow control! I know how to do that!", ^S would freeze everything and you had to Just Know to do ^Q...)"
@wrog@mastodon.murkworks.net this is still a problem in modern terminal emulators. On my Linux Mint installation the all of the terminal emulator software emulates the DEC VT-220 hardware pretty closely, so it does actually send the ASCII
DC1andDC3characters forC-sandC-q, and the virtual TTY device responds accordingly by blocking all further characters except forDC1andDC3. You have to execute the commandstty -ixonto disable soft flow control for a given TTY device after it has been initialized by the operating system. I think there is a way configure the pseudoterminal manager system control to create virtual TTY devices that ignoreDC1andDC3characters, but I don't know how, and for whatever reason (probably for backward compatibility with older Unix systems) Debian-based Linux doesn't configure it this way by default.@kentpitman@climatejustice.social @dougmerritt@mathstodon.xyz @screwlisp@gamerplus.org @cdegroot@mstdn.ca
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@screwlisp
Seems like the universe is calling on you to fix it!With some apologies to legends:
(defun chained-toot
(lim str)
(let ((space (- lim 8))
(End (length str))
(span (+ 1 (ceiling (/ (length str) (- lim 8))))))
(cl-loop
for idx from 1 to span
for start from 0 by space
for end from space by space
for piece = (cl-subseq str start (min end End))
for addy = (format "%s\n%d/%d" piece idx span)
collect addy)))@dougmerritt @mousebot @wrog @cdegroot @ramin_hal9001 @kentpitman
#elisp -
With some apologies to legends:
(defun chained-toot
(lim str)
(let ((space (- lim 8))
(End (length str))
(span (+ 1 (ceiling (/ (length str) (- lim 8))))))
(cl-loop
for idx from 1 to span
for start from 0 by space
for end from space by space
for piece = (cl-subseq str start (min end End))
for addy = (format "%s\n%d/%d" piece idx span)
collect addy)))@dougmerritt @mousebot @wrog @cdegroot @ramin_hal9001 @kentpitman
#elisp@screwlisp
You forgot to change 'space' in a complex inscrutable way at each step.
