After shutting down #HolosDiscover, we're rethinking the approach with #HolosIndex: users explicitly opt in by adding #HolosIndex to their bio with interest tags, then submit their profile.
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@julian@activitypub.space @tom I believe Mastodon is iterating on its onboarding experience more or less nonstop. I've been running this server from the start, so I don't actually know what account registration looks like normally, much less how it's been changing, but I assume there's a balancing act guiding people through necessary choices without overburdening the process. How do we ask people what they want without sounding overly complicated? /cc @scottjenson @imanijoy
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@julian
OAuth would mean implementing specific integrations for each Fediverse software, and some don't even support it. The bio hashtag works universally across any ActivityPub implementation without any server-side dependency.
You can also opt in via mention if you don't want the hashtag visible in your bio.@apps Okay yeah, that's fair. Takes me back to how I added a choice between Mastodon-style OAuth and DMing a confirmation code for account verification to FediRoster.
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I totally agree. Their criteria was already very respectful, and motivated, native tools for the fediverse need leeway to work, grow and let the whole ecosystem grow.
Restricting them for some imaginary moral high ground, the only thing that accomplishes is letting the big tech corpos that don't give a shit about your feelings in the first place to use that space, instead of reclaming it for open solutions. AI training is already digesting all those already public posts they're gatekeeping. -
@tom
That's exactly the point we raised. There's a complete misunderstanding: people think they're creating an account in a safe space, but default settings are already exposing them to big tech. We just made it visible by playing by the rules. And unlike big tech, our data stayed within the Fediverse with a far more respectful approach.
@julian @nicolaottomanoI can only imagine how frustrating it would be to openly and honestly play by the rules just to be shamed out of your project, just to let big tech take the cake anyway.
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After shutting down #HolosDiscover, we're rethinking the approach with #HolosIndex: users explicitly opt in by adding #HolosIndex to their bio with interest tags, then submit their profile. No assumptions, no default settings.
This will power interest-based discovery across the #Fediverse, helping people find each other through shared interests. Still all through #ActivityPub of course, with real-time deletions and updates.@apps it is kind of annoying that every fediverse search engine requires more stuff in the bio. I ignore them because of that. It'd be nice if they worked together to agree on one standard - ideally in the protocol (and therefore visible in the user's settings) and not awkwardly in their profile
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I also like the Follow approach best.
Follow the HolosIndex bot gives explicit consent "please index my public posts". HashPub by @evan follows a similar method, and also https://anagora.org by @flancian works on that basis. Give a nice acknowledgement after the follow request, and perhaps an unfollow removes you from the index again.
I find this a better mechanism than the magic hashtags in profile approach, where there's already tight charlimit in many apps for the intro. You also have (or had) this with https://fediverse.info when adding #fedi22 to ones profile.
@smallcircles @flancian @apps @evan @tehstu Yep, opt in by following the account is the way to go. Parsing hashtags is really clunky and has more potential for user error.
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@julian@activitypub.space @tom I believe Mastodon is iterating on its onboarding experience more or less nonstop. I've been running this server from the start, so I don't actually know what account registration looks like normally, much less how it's been changing, but I assume there's a balancing act guiding people through necessary choices without overburdening the process. How do we ask people what they want without sounding overly complicated? /cc @scottjenson @imanijoy
@julian@fietkau.social @julian@activitypub.space @tom @imanijoy @apps @nicolaottomano
There is a lot here and I'm coming at the end:
1. Should this be something users are asked about when creating an account?
No, users are a bit overwhelmed getting their new account up and working, throwing this into the 'education funnel' is likely to overwhelm.2. Should this be gated behind a hashtag in bio?
No, It's clearly the easiest solution but also useless. Very few are will do this initially, which of course, doesn't encourage anyone else to join in.3. Should this be gated behind an existing preference?
Yes, if people have global search turned on. They've ALREADY said they want be be found globally. If anyone is upset, they can easily turn it off (by changing the setting) The set of people that want to be globally searched and NOT found by this seems microscopic.But conversations about this are always difficult and people have strong opinions. This is my personal take to promote discussion. Nothing official here!
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R relay@relay.an.exchange shared this topic
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@julian@fietkau.social @julian@activitypub.space @tom @imanijoy @apps @nicolaottomano
There is a lot here and I'm coming at the end:
1. Should this be something users are asked about when creating an account?
No, users are a bit overwhelmed getting their new account up and working, throwing this into the 'education funnel' is likely to overwhelm.2. Should this be gated behind a hashtag in bio?
No, It's clearly the easiest solution but also useless. Very few are will do this initially, which of course, doesn't encourage anyone else to join in.3. Should this be gated behind an existing preference?
Yes, if people have global search turned on. They've ALREADY said they want be be found globally. If anyone is upset, they can easily turn it off (by changing the setting) The set of people that want to be globally searched and NOT found by this seems microscopic.But conversations about this are always difficult and people have strong opinions. This is my personal take to promote discussion. Nothing official here!
@scottjenson Thanks Scott! I tagged you mainly wrt the Mastodon onboarding strategy, since my takes on it will probably be naive.
If asking during account creaction is too much, maybe asking a bit later during normal use could be an idea. If people are not asked at all, that feels like it gives outsized power to default settings. Been a topic in the German bubble, with public institutions not knowing about the "discoverable" flag.
@julian@activitypub.space @tom @imanijoy @apps @nicolaottomano
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@scottjenson Thanks Scott! I tagged you mainly wrt the Mastodon onboarding strategy, since my takes on it will probably be naive.
If asking during account creaction is too much, maybe asking a bit later during normal use could be an idea. If people are not asked at all, that feels like it gives outsized power to default settings. Been a topic in the German bubble, with public institutions not knowing about the "discoverable" flag.
@julian@activitypub.space @tom @imanijoy @apps @nicolaottomano
@julian@fietkau.social Yeah, this is an ongoing issue. I too am somewhat frustrated that the 'discoverable flag' is off by default. In that sense it's not that different than adding a hashtag to your profile. However, it DOES exist right now and people have been turning it on so it's better to draft behind something that has already been created than create something ELSE to explain.
"Adding something to the onboarding flow" is tricky. You are correct pointing out why defaults are so important (and contentious) I hope over time, as people realize that the discoverable flag hasn't caused the end of the fediverse, that we can (someday) move to turning it on by default. But today is not that day.
@julian@activitypub.space @tom @imanijoy @apps @nicolaottomano
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@julian@fietkau.social Yeah, this is an ongoing issue. I too am somewhat frustrated that the 'discoverable flag' is off by default. In that sense it's not that different than adding a hashtag to your profile. However, it DOES exist right now and people have been turning it on so it's better to draft behind something that has already been created than create something ELSE to explain.
"Adding something to the onboarding flow" is tricky. You are correct pointing out why defaults are so important (and contentious) I hope over time, as people realize that the discoverable flag hasn't caused the end of the fediverse, that we can (someday) move to turning it on by default. But today is not that day.
@julian@activitypub.space @tom @imanijoy @apps @nicolaottomano
@scottjenson@social.coop I think there's a place for this in an onboarding flow.
Right now registering for a Mastodon account drops you into an empty feed (I think), which isn't necessarily the best UX either.
A short wizard to get the user started following tags or suggested users, and then asking about "allow others to find you?" wouldn't be too onerous.
