After shutting down #HolosDiscover, we're rethinking the approach with #HolosIndex: users explicitly opt in by adding #HolosIndex to their bio with interest tags, then submit their profile.
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@nicolaottomano
We actually received links to conversations where the project was being discussed quite aggressively beyond what was visible here. We still believe our approach was ethical, but it didn't account for users not understanding their own default settings. Of course, the same settings used by real scrapers like Google, but that's another debate
@julian@apps@toot.fedilab.app that's exactly it. You're not responsible for others not understanding that when they post publicly, their post is public.
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@tehstu
Our previous mechanism was actually more thorough than that. Before following or indexing anyone, we checked multiple signals: indexable enabled, account not locked, no #nobot in bio. But since indexable is enabled by default when you create an account, we were closer to opt-out than opt-in. That's why we're rethinking the approach with explicit opt-in.@apps If I understood it all correctly though, you would follow accounts based on these criteria.
I was thinking of the reverse, where people elect to follow the discover account. Perhaps some settings-based checks could also be applied, as you did previously. Looking to make sure the account is indexed and so forth before following back (which I guess would be the thumbs up that the discovery is now active).
Apologies, I'm problem solving things I imagine greater minds have already considered while putting off what I should be working on (which is making me tear my hair out). Either way, I look forward to whatever ends up working. The Holos stuff is such a novel concept!
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After shutting down #HolosDiscover, we're rethinking the approach with #HolosIndex: users explicitly opt in by adding #HolosIndex to their bio with interest tags, then submit their profile. No assumptions, no default settings.
This will power interest-based discovery across the #Fediverse, helping people find each other through shared interests. Still all through #ActivityPub of course, with real-time deletions and updates.@apps As experienced client devs, I assume you have the infrastructure for OAuth already in place? I'd rather go to your website and authenticate my Mastodon account there than have a hashtag in my bio... the Tootfinder hashtag kinda annoys me every time I see it.
That aside, I believe Mastodon is going to introduce some kind of profile signal for willingness to appear in starter packs, might be worth additionally keeping an eye on whatever happens there. https://github.com/mastodon/featured_collections
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@apps As experienced client devs, I assume you have the infrastructure for OAuth already in place? I'd rather go to your website and authenticate my Mastodon account there than have a hashtag in my bio... the Tootfinder hashtag kinda annoys me every time I see it.
That aside, I believe Mastodon is going to introduce some kind of profile signal for willingness to appear in starter packs, might be worth additionally keeping an eye on whatever happens there. https://github.com/mastodon/featured_collections
@julian
OAuth would mean implementing specific integrations for each Fediverse software, and some don't even support it. The bio hashtag works universally across any ActivityPub implementation without any server-side dependency.
You can also opt in via mention if you don't want the hashtag visible in your bio. -
@julian I do think there's a bigger issue here, if a significant number of users are not understanding discoverability settings then we have to figure out a way to explain that functionality better.
If we fall back to every ActivityPub app/server having a unique discoverability configuration then we will have a situation where nobody understands the settings.
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After shutting down #HolosDiscover, we're rethinking the approach with #HolosIndex: users explicitly opt in by adding #HolosIndex to their bio with interest tags, then submit their profile. No assumptions, no default settings.
This will power interest-based discovery across the #Fediverse, helping people find each other through shared interests. Still all through #ActivityPub of course, with real-time deletions and updates.It seems this issue has resurrected, or resumed
My entire point (all the noise notwithstanding) focused on
Default opt-in versus default opt-out
This is an agent --> recipient transaction
Default opt-in: the recipient is opted into (and participates in) the action whether the recipient --> knows of <-- the action or not
Default opt-out: the recipient is opted out of (and cannot participate in) the action whether the recipient --> knows of <-- the action or not
Neither default opt-in nor default opt-out have any logical meaning if THE RECIPIENT DOES NOT KNOW OF THE ACTION in advance
Here is one of the oldest prior discussions I participated in on Github with Ryan (snarfed) Barrett re: bridgy-fed back starting in February of 2024
Read all of it; it's very long
Here: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/880#issue-2136207725
With that, I'm out
Y'all have fun, eh?
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@julian I do think there's a bigger issue here, if a significant number of users are not understanding discoverability settings then we have to figure out a way to explain that functionality better.
If we fall back to every ActivityPub app/server having a unique discoverability configuration then we will have a situation where nobody understands the settings.
@tom
That's exactly the point we raised. There's a complete misunderstanding: people think they're creating an account in a safe space, but default settings are already exposing them to big tech. We just made it visible by playing by the rules. And unlike big tech, our data stayed within the Fediverse with a far more respectful approach.
@julian @nicolaottomano -
@julian I do think there's a bigger issue here, if a significant number of users are not understanding discoverability settings then we have to figure out a way to explain that functionality better.
If we fall back to every ActivityPub app/server having a unique discoverability configuration then we will have a situation where nobody understands the settings.
@tom@tomkahe.com completely fair. There is a user education opportunity here, and in an ideal world we'd have all have the time, energy, and patience to learn and grow together.
... but what I have seen and experienced is hair-trigger rage and an inability to even consider other possibilites, that I am now immediately on the defensive.
Thanks for reminding me that patience is still important
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@apps If I understood it all correctly though, you would follow accounts based on these criteria.
I was thinking of the reverse, where people elect to follow the discover account. Perhaps some settings-based checks could also be applied, as you did previously. Looking to make sure the account is indexed and so forth before following back (which I guess would be the thumbs up that the discovery is now active).
Apologies, I'm problem solving things I imagine greater minds have already considered while putting off what I should be working on (which is making me tear my hair out). Either way, I look forward to whatever ends up working. The Holos stuff is such a novel concept!
I also like the Follow approach best.
Follow the HolosIndex bot gives explicit consent "please index my public posts". HashPub by @evan follows a similar method, and also https://anagora.org by @flancian works on that basis. Give a nice acknowledgement after the follow request, and perhaps an unfollow removes you from the index again.
I find this a better mechanism than the magic hashtags in profile approach, where there's already tight charlimit in many apps for the intro. You also have (or had) this with https://fediverse.info when adding #fedi22 to ones profile.
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@julian@activitypub.space @tom I believe Mastodon is iterating on its onboarding experience more or less nonstop. I've been running this server from the start, so I don't actually know what account registration looks like normally, much less how it's been changing, but I assume there's a balancing act guiding people through necessary choices without overburdening the process. How do we ask people what they want without sounding overly complicated? /cc @scottjenson @imanijoy
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@julian
OAuth would mean implementing specific integrations for each Fediverse software, and some don't even support it. The bio hashtag works universally across any ActivityPub implementation without any server-side dependency.
You can also opt in via mention if you don't want the hashtag visible in your bio.@apps Okay yeah, that's fair. Takes me back to how I added a choice between Mastodon-style OAuth and DMing a confirmation code for account verification to FediRoster.
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I totally agree. Their criteria was already very respectful, and motivated, native tools for the fediverse need leeway to work, grow and let the whole ecosystem grow.
Restricting them for some imaginary moral high ground, the only thing that accomplishes is letting the big tech corpos that don't give a shit about your feelings in the first place to use that space, instead of reclaming it for open solutions. AI training is already digesting all those already public posts they're gatekeeping. -
@tom
That's exactly the point we raised. There's a complete misunderstanding: people think they're creating an account in a safe space, but default settings are already exposing them to big tech. We just made it visible by playing by the rules. And unlike big tech, our data stayed within the Fediverse with a far more respectful approach.
@julian @nicolaottomanoI can only imagine how frustrating it would be to openly and honestly play by the rules just to be shamed out of your project, just to let big tech take the cake anyway.
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After shutting down #HolosDiscover, we're rethinking the approach with #HolosIndex: users explicitly opt in by adding #HolosIndex to their bio with interest tags, then submit their profile. No assumptions, no default settings.
This will power interest-based discovery across the #Fediverse, helping people find each other through shared interests. Still all through #ActivityPub of course, with real-time deletions and updates.@apps it is kind of annoying that every fediverse search engine requires more stuff in the bio. I ignore them because of that. It'd be nice if they worked together to agree on one standard - ideally in the protocol (and therefore visible in the user's settings) and not awkwardly in their profile
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I also like the Follow approach best.
Follow the HolosIndex bot gives explicit consent "please index my public posts". HashPub by @evan follows a similar method, and also https://anagora.org by @flancian works on that basis. Give a nice acknowledgement after the follow request, and perhaps an unfollow removes you from the index again.
I find this a better mechanism than the magic hashtags in profile approach, where there's already tight charlimit in many apps for the intro. You also have (or had) this with https://fediverse.info when adding #fedi22 to ones profile.
@smallcircles @flancian @apps @evan @tehstu Yep, opt in by following the account is the way to go. Parsing hashtags is really clunky and has more potential for user error.
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@julian@activitypub.space @tom I believe Mastodon is iterating on its onboarding experience more or less nonstop. I've been running this server from the start, so I don't actually know what account registration looks like normally, much less how it's been changing, but I assume there's a balancing act guiding people through necessary choices without overburdening the process. How do we ask people what they want without sounding overly complicated? /cc @scottjenson @imanijoy
@julian@fietkau.social @julian@activitypub.space @tom @imanijoy @apps @nicolaottomano
There is a lot here and I'm coming at the end:
1. Should this be something users are asked about when creating an account?
No, users are a bit overwhelmed getting their new account up and working, throwing this into the 'education funnel' is likely to overwhelm.2. Should this be gated behind a hashtag in bio?
No, It's clearly the easiest solution but also useless. Very few are will do this initially, which of course, doesn't encourage anyone else to join in.3. Should this be gated behind an existing preference?
Yes, if people have global search turned on. They've ALREADY said they want be be found globally. If anyone is upset, they can easily turn it off (by changing the setting) The set of people that want to be globally searched and NOT found by this seems microscopic.But conversations about this are always difficult and people have strong opinions. This is my personal take to promote discussion. Nothing official here!
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R relay@relay.an.exchange shared this topic
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@julian@fietkau.social @julian@activitypub.space @tom @imanijoy @apps @nicolaottomano
There is a lot here and I'm coming at the end:
1. Should this be something users are asked about when creating an account?
No, users are a bit overwhelmed getting their new account up and working, throwing this into the 'education funnel' is likely to overwhelm.2. Should this be gated behind a hashtag in bio?
No, It's clearly the easiest solution but also useless. Very few are will do this initially, which of course, doesn't encourage anyone else to join in.3. Should this be gated behind an existing preference?
Yes, if people have global search turned on. They've ALREADY said they want be be found globally. If anyone is upset, they can easily turn it off (by changing the setting) The set of people that want to be globally searched and NOT found by this seems microscopic.But conversations about this are always difficult and people have strong opinions. This is my personal take to promote discussion. Nothing official here!
@scottjenson Thanks Scott! I tagged you mainly wrt the Mastodon onboarding strategy, since my takes on it will probably be naive.
If asking during account creaction is too much, maybe asking a bit later during normal use could be an idea. If people are not asked at all, that feels like it gives outsized power to default settings. Been a topic in the German bubble, with public institutions not knowing about the "discoverable" flag.
@julian@activitypub.space @tom @imanijoy @apps @nicolaottomano
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@scottjenson Thanks Scott! I tagged you mainly wrt the Mastodon onboarding strategy, since my takes on it will probably be naive.
If asking during account creaction is too much, maybe asking a bit later during normal use could be an idea. If people are not asked at all, that feels like it gives outsized power to default settings. Been a topic in the German bubble, with public institutions not knowing about the "discoverable" flag.
@julian@activitypub.space @tom @imanijoy @apps @nicolaottomano
@julian@fietkau.social Yeah, this is an ongoing issue. I too am somewhat frustrated that the 'discoverable flag' is off by default. In that sense it's not that different than adding a hashtag to your profile. However, it DOES exist right now and people have been turning it on so it's better to draft behind something that has already been created than create something ELSE to explain.
"Adding something to the onboarding flow" is tricky. You are correct pointing out why defaults are so important (and contentious) I hope over time, as people realize that the discoverable flag hasn't caused the end of the fediverse, that we can (someday) move to turning it on by default. But today is not that day.
@julian@activitypub.space @tom @imanijoy @apps @nicolaottomano
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@julian@fietkau.social Yeah, this is an ongoing issue. I too am somewhat frustrated that the 'discoverable flag' is off by default. In that sense it's not that different than adding a hashtag to your profile. However, it DOES exist right now and people have been turning it on so it's better to draft behind something that has already been created than create something ELSE to explain.
"Adding something to the onboarding flow" is tricky. You are correct pointing out why defaults are so important (and contentious) I hope over time, as people realize that the discoverable flag hasn't caused the end of the fediverse, that we can (someday) move to turning it on by default. But today is not that day.
@julian@activitypub.space @tom @imanijoy @apps @nicolaottomano
@scottjenson@social.coop I think there's a place for this in an onboarding flow.
Right now registering for a Mastodon account drops you into an empty feed (I think), which isn't necessarily the best UX either.
A short wizard to get the user started following tags or suggested users, and then asking about "allow others to find you?" wouldn't be too onerous.
