ok fuck let's commit to the jump then.
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@elilla voiced palato-alveolar fricatives.
@bebatjof
wouldn't that make French also sound like Russian -
@bebatjof
wouldn't that make French also sound like Russian@elilla was about to add that it's of course a combination of certain sounds (and lack of others). Nasal in French is more outspoken than in Portuguese and Polish, which have an "ng" residue imo.
Of course I need to add that I know French, and basics of Spanish and Italian. So when I'm hearing people in language guessing mode: "definitely European, not Germanic or Scandinavian, nor Fr-Sp-It, some aspects of Slavic, but also Romance, maybe not Polish or Russian or Ukrainian or Romanian cause I'd recognise those, but how does Croatian sound? Portuguese?"
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> Why does Portuguese sound like Russian or Polish?
we do??
@elilla I would say it's more true of Portuguese Portuguese than Brazilian
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@elilla was about to add that it's of course a combination of certain sounds (and lack of others). Nasal in French is more outspoken than in Portuguese and Polish, which have an "ng" residue imo.
Of course I need to add that I know French, and basics of Spanish and Italian. So when I'm hearing people in language guessing mode: "definitely European, not Germanic or Scandinavian, nor Fr-Sp-It, some aspects of Slavic, but also Romance, maybe not Polish or Russian or Ukrainian or Romanian cause I'd recognise those, but how does Croatian sound? Portuguese?"
@bebatjof yeah all the things we have in common with Polish that I can think of:
- nasal diphthongs
- alveolar trills
- voiced postalveolar fricatives that aren't affricates
- penultimate accent (commonly)
- seven-vowel system (almost the same; they misss one level of u/o/ɔ, and compensate with an additional ɨ
- /ɲ/ ≠ /nj/
- brightness (alveolars are dental, shibilants aren't rounded)
- (for BP) /x/
- being cool people -
@bebatjof yeah all the things we have in common with Polish that I can think of:
- nasal diphthongs
- alveolar trills
- voiced postalveolar fricatives that aren't affricates
- penultimate accent (commonly)
- seven-vowel system (almost the same; they misss one level of u/o/ɔ, and compensate with an additional ɨ
- /ɲ/ ≠ /nj/
- brightness (alveolars are dental, shibilants aren't rounded)
- (for BP) /x/
- being cool people
Absolutely. You're analysing this véry phonetically (🧡) which is not how everybody thinks (sorry). Can I interest you in morphology? (eg words that I suspect to be nouns ending in o or a).
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@bebatjof yeah all the things we have in common with Polish that I can think of:
- nasal diphthongs
- alveolar trills
- voiced postalveolar fricatives that aren't affricates
- penultimate accent (commonly)
- seven-vowel system (almost the same; they misss one level of u/o/ɔ, and compensate with an additional ɨ
- /ɲ/ ≠ /nj/
- brightness (alveolars are dental, shibilants aren't rounded)
- (for BP) /x/
- being cool people -
@elilla From some distance, yes. Like, hearing the sound, the melody, but not able to distinguish words. Like, people talking about 5-10 metres away. Get closer, and the effect disappears. I have noticed that many times, having some Portugese folks in the team.
Worth to note, it happens only for pt_PT. The Brasillian variant doesn't have this effect. Also, confirmed repeatably by listening to Brasil folks in the office.
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dunno, apical trills and nasal vowels? penultimate accent?
ok I found the *real* reason Polish and Portuguese are alike: we both use a cognate of maccheroni to mean "pasta" generically
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ok I found the *real* reason Polish and Portuguese are alike: we both use a cognate of maccheroni to mean "pasta" generically
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ok I found the *real* reason Polish and Portuguese are alike: we both use a cognate of maccheroni to mean "pasta" generically
list of macaronic languages:*
- Albanian
- Arabic
- Armenian
- Arzeibaijani
- Belarusian
- Georgian
- Kazakh
- Kurdish
- Polish
- Portuguese
- Russian
- Tajik
- Turkish
- Turkmen
- Ukrainian
- Uzbek
words for "pasta" look pretty areal, I bet they would make a fun map.as usual Arabic is the prettiest, especially the variations مَعْكَرُونَة (maʕkarūna) and the Maghrebi مقرونية (maqarūniyya)
* not actually what "macaronic language" means
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list of macaronic languages:*
- Albanian
- Arabic
- Armenian
- Arzeibaijani
- Belarusian
- Georgian
- Kazakh
- Kurdish
- Polish
- Portuguese
- Russian
- Tajik
- Turkish
- Turkmen
- Ukrainian
- Uzbek words for "pasta" look pretty areal, I bet they would make a fun map.as usual Arabic is the prettiest, especially the variations مَعْكَرُونَة (maʕkarūna) and the Maghrebi مقرونية (maqarūniyya)
* not actually what "macaronic language" means
@elilla I think it has something to do with this:
- YouTube
Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
(www.youtube.com)
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@elilla I think it has something to do with this:
- YouTube
Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
(www.youtube.com)
@elilla But seriously, I love the illustration they chose as an example here.
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list of macaronic languages:*
- Albanian
- Arabic
- Armenian
- Arzeibaijani
- Belarusian
- Georgian
- Kazakh
- Kurdish
- Polish
- Portuguese
- Russian
- Tajik
- Turkish
- Turkmen
- Ukrainian
- Uzbek words for "pasta" look pretty areal, I bet they would make a fun map.as usual Arabic is the prettiest, especially the variations مَعْكَرُونَة (maʕkarūna) and the Maghrebi مقرونية (maqarūniyya)
* not actually what "macaronic language" means
we can see that many Slavic languages use a word based on maccheroni, a few others also "pasta" (Bulgarian па́ста, also Russian increasingly). but what was interesting to me is that many of them have a word derived from Proto-Slavic, tě̑sto (cognate of "dough", "Teig"):
- Czech: těstovina
- Macedonian: testenina
- Serbo-Croatian: testenìna, tjestenìna
- Slovak: cestovina
- Slovene: testeninaHungarian also borrowed it as tészta.
The base word also exists in other Slavic languages (Russian те́сто, Polish ciasto etc) but not the -ina form for "pasta".
The Latin reflex of the same PIE (*dʰeyǵʰ) is fingere "to knead", figulus "potter". this gives Spanish heñir "to knead" and, curiously, Portuguese fingir "to pretend" (Italian still has "fingere" with both meanings).
since Slavic -ina is the feminine of PS *-inъ which is cognate to Latin -īnus/-īna, we can follow the example of Czech and friends to reconstruct a native Portuguese word for pasta: *fingina
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we can see that many Slavic languages use a word based on maccheroni, a few others also "pasta" (Bulgarian па́ста, also Russian increasingly). but what was interesting to me is that many of them have a word derived from Proto-Slavic, tě̑sto (cognate of "dough", "Teig"):
- Czech: těstovina
- Macedonian: testenina
- Serbo-Croatian: testenìna, tjestenìna
- Slovak: cestovina
- Slovene: testeninaHungarian also borrowed it as tészta.
The base word also exists in other Slavic languages (Russian те́сто, Polish ciasto etc) but not the -ina form for "pasta".
The Latin reflex of the same PIE (*dʰeyǵʰ) is fingere "to knead", figulus "potter". this gives Spanish heñir "to knead" and, curiously, Portuguese fingir "to pretend" (Italian still has "fingere" with both meanings).
since Slavic -ina is the feminine of PS *-inъ which is cognate to Latin -īnus/-īna, we can follow the example of Czech and friends to reconstruct a native Portuguese word for pasta: *fingina
this is also how I learned the beautiful Ancient Greek word for pasta: κολλύρα , also present in older strata of Latin as collȳra. why didn't Italian go with that rather than getting "pasta" (ultimately Greek παστά, "barley porridge", lit. "sprinkled" (with salt)) is beyond me.
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we can see that many Slavic languages use a word based on maccheroni, a few others also "pasta" (Bulgarian па́ста, also Russian increasingly). but what was interesting to me is that many of them have a word derived from Proto-Slavic, tě̑sto (cognate of "dough", "Teig"):
- Czech: těstovina
- Macedonian: testenina
- Serbo-Croatian: testenìna, tjestenìna
- Slovak: cestovina
- Slovene: testeninaHungarian also borrowed it as tészta.
The base word also exists in other Slavic languages (Russian те́сто, Polish ciasto etc) but not the -ina form for "pasta".
The Latin reflex of the same PIE (*dʰeyǵʰ) is fingere "to knead", figulus "potter". this gives Spanish heñir "to knead" and, curiously, Portuguese fingir "to pretend" (Italian still has "fingere" with both meanings).
since Slavic -ina is the feminine of PS *-inъ which is cognate to Latin -īnus/-īna, we can follow the example of Czech and friends to reconstruct a native Portuguese word for pasta: *fingina
@elilla Macedonian immigrant in Germany here! my whole Macedonian family uses 'нудли' ('nudli') from. i'd use тестенина more for a dough-y fancy Gebäckstück (sorry, i mix languages), i.e. something baked made out of dough -- probably because тесто - dough in Macedonian, although using it for pasta in my experience is either outdated or too formal but not suuper uncommon (i'd understand after a confused second). my guess is people would also understand 'паста', as an english loanword.
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this is also how I learned the beautiful Ancient Greek word for pasta: κολλύρα , also present in older strata of Latin as collȳra. why didn't Italian go with that rather than getting "pasta" (ultimately Greek παστά, "barley porridge", lit. "sprinkled" (with salt)) is beyond me.
I thought where was this beautiful word from but turns out it's Pre-Greek. I keep being attracted to Ancient Greek words that turn out to be Pre-Greek. I don't know the details of the Pre-Greek language but it sure was pretty
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@elilla Macedonian immigrant in Germany here! my whole Macedonian family uses 'нудли' ('nudli') from. i'd use тестенина more for a dough-y fancy Gebäckstück (sorry, i mix languages), i.e. something baked made out of dough -- probably because тесто - dough in Macedonian, although using it for pasta in my experience is either outdated or too formal but not suuper uncommon (i'd understand after a confused second). my guess is people would also understand 'паста', as an english loanword.
@august thanks for the clarification! would you say that тестенина is like, Teigwaren?
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I thought where was this beautiful word from but turns out it's Pre-Greek. I keep being attracted to Ancient Greek words that turn out to be Pre-Greek. I don't know the details of the Pre-Greek language but it sure was pretty
headcanon is that this is all from Linear A.
I don't have any basis whatsoever to claim that, I just like the Minoans so I want it to be true
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@august thanks for the clarification! would you say that тестенина is like, Teigwaren?
@elilla that might have been the exact word i was looking for
although it's in singular, so... Teigware? xD
also wanted to add that тестенина feels more general than pasta, but i think that's exactly what you were implying. -
ok I found the *real* reason Polish and Portuguese are alike: we both use a cognate of maccheroni to mean "pasta" generically
@elilla that's (I assume) because they all imported the word before the Italian unification: in Neapolitan "maccheroni" was a generic word for dry pasta (as opposed to fresh pasta like ravioli, tagliatelle and such).
Nowadays in modern Italian it's very old-fashioned and feels very odd.In the movie "un Americano a Roma" (1954) Alberto Sordi calls spaghetti "maccherone" in the iconic scene (depicted on the linked Wikipedia), and he's talking Romanesco inflected Italian.
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Un_americano_a_Roma
