Study (N=2,689) of men (18-34) finds 95.1% reported using strategies to get a woman to have sex who they knew did not want sex & had not consented; 65% successful.
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What does having multiple partners have to do with this at all? Rape can happen in monogamous relationships too, you ghoul.
@joykill @gabriel @pattykimura it specifies that they did not have a prior sexual/romantic relationship with the woman to separate out relationships.
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I'm not coming to argue "not all men", but from reading the tooth one walks away with the idea that 95% of men force women to have sex, and that is not what the article says at all. What it claims is that of a population that admits to intentionally sexually aggressed woman, 95% report to use strategies to get a woman to have sex when she hasn't consented.
I mean, clearly the paper itself claims "not all men".
@gabriel
#notAllMen is the problem where this argument is used "to deflect attention away from men".Imho you're not doing that.
Obviously, even if only a small fraction of men are doing this shit (and we know it's not a small fraction), all men are obligated to do better to make it stop. You didn't say anything against that. I wish you were not attacked over this and we could focus on the problem at hand with knowledge of the real data
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@amydiehl OK, but the paper was focused on that demographic:
"This research was designed to focus on men who admit having intentionally and knowingly sexually aggressed against a woman who they knew did not want sex nor consented to it, including strategies to overcome her reluctance, circumstances, motivations, and positive and negative outcomes."
I just read the paper, and I'm not entirely satisfied with either mini-précis in the 2 toots above, or indeed the researchers' own framing.
"A sample of 3,011 self-identified men ages 18 to 34 (Mage = 27.31) was recruited in the Spring of 2023 using an online panel (Qualtrics Research Suite) that invited all men who met criteria into the study. The study was described as exploring positive and negative interactions between men and women in sexual situations. The consent form indicated that the survey was men’s opportunity “to provide their side of the story given that we have heard so much from women” about male–female sexual interactions, repeatedly assuring them of their guaranteed anonymity. ...
"Men were eligible if they self-identified as men, were in the age range 18 to 34 years, and reported having had a sexual encounter with a woman in the past 2 years. ...
"Participants were asked “In the past four years, how many times have you used any of the following strategies to get (or try to get) a woman to have some type of sex when she did not want to have sex or acted like she did not want to have sex? (Only women you have recently met—no sex or dating history with them beforehand).”"
So, @gabriel - yes the researchers were focusing on pressure tactics, but this cohort wasn't recruited _from_ people who _already_ said they had pressured women into sex.
On the other hand, @amydiehl, I think the "sexual encounter with a woman in the past 2 years" criterion is a significant distinction from men-of-that-age in general, because there will be men who aren't using the pressure tactics and _haven't_ had sex with a woman in the last 2 years - and those seem to me quite obviously _not_ independent variables. Young men who are just chilling with their friends, or who are "waiting for the right person", or indeed who are isolated and unhappy and never leave their house, simply aren't part of this cohort.
For this reason, even though the paper says
"RQ1: What proportion of men report a history of using strategies to force a woman to have sex?" ... I don't see how they think they're measuring that.It's still valuable for the list of tactics and the relative prevalence of the tactics in relation to each other. And it does of course show that there are thousands of blokes who think it's okay to push reluctant women into sex, which is yikesy enough.
Open to contradiction if I've read it wrong!
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Study (N=2,689) of men (18-34) finds 95.1% reported using strategies to get a woman to have sex who they knew did not want sex & had not consented; 65% successful. Consistent physical pressure & verbal coercion common; overt force, physical restraint, pain also used. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/08862605261432630
@amydiehl I feel ashamed...
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@amydiehl awful study but undoubtedly true
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@amydiehl This is very distressing. When I think of the immense pressure on young women in this present US era, it’s very difficult to avoid aggressive cis male predation. Far more than when I was in my early 20’s. And I have 2 very strikingly beautiful granddaughters who often deal with it.
It has always been like this. In my early 10's, 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's and still now 60's. And long before. Hopefully not long after me.
First sentence introduction:
"What is striking about sexual aggression is that despite decades of research, public health initiatives, education, media attention, and policy focus, there has been no discernible decrease in rates since first assessed in the 1980s and 1990s." -
@gabriel
#notAllMen is the problem where this argument is used "to deflect attention away from men".Imho you're not doing that.
Obviously, even if only a small fraction of men are doing this shit (and we know it's not a small fraction), all men are obligated to do better to make it stop. You didn't say anything against that. I wish you were not attacked over this and we could focus on the problem at hand with knowledge of the real data
️@iwein @gabriel
The plea is rather "All Men until No Men", where #NotAllMen tries to turn the argument away from the systemic matter, absolving one or some individuals, while ignoring the fact that even "nice" men benefit quite significantly every day from a system that oppresses women. -
@iwein @gabriel
The plea is rather "All Men until No Men", where #NotAllMen tries to turn the argument away from the systemic matter, absolving one or some individuals, while ignoring the fact that even "nice" men benefit quite significantly every day from a system that oppresses women. -
@jupiter thanks for the clarification. I copy pasted from Wikipedia, but your language is more clear. We do agree, right?
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I just read the paper, and I'm not entirely satisfied with either mini-précis in the 2 toots above, or indeed the researchers' own framing.
"A sample of 3,011 self-identified men ages 18 to 34 (Mage = 27.31) was recruited in the Spring of 2023 using an online panel (Qualtrics Research Suite) that invited all men who met criteria into the study. The study was described as exploring positive and negative interactions between men and women in sexual situations. The consent form indicated that the survey was men’s opportunity “to provide their side of the story given that we have heard so much from women” about male–female sexual interactions, repeatedly assuring them of their guaranteed anonymity. ...
"Men were eligible if they self-identified as men, were in the age range 18 to 34 years, and reported having had a sexual encounter with a woman in the past 2 years. ...
"Participants were asked “In the past four years, how many times have you used any of the following strategies to get (or try to get) a woman to have some type of sex when she did not want to have sex or acted like she did not want to have sex? (Only women you have recently met—no sex or dating history with them beforehand).”"
So, @gabriel - yes the researchers were focusing on pressure tactics, but this cohort wasn't recruited _from_ people who _already_ said they had pressured women into sex.
On the other hand, @amydiehl, I think the "sexual encounter with a woman in the past 2 years" criterion is a significant distinction from men-of-that-age in general, because there will be men who aren't using the pressure tactics and _haven't_ had sex with a woman in the last 2 years - and those seem to me quite obviously _not_ independent variables. Young men who are just chilling with their friends, or who are "waiting for the right person", or indeed who are isolated and unhappy and never leave their house, simply aren't part of this cohort.
For this reason, even though the paper says
"RQ1: What proportion of men report a history of using strategies to force a woman to have sex?" ... I don't see how they think they're measuring that.It's still valuable for the list of tactics and the relative prevalence of the tactics in relation to each other. And it does of course show that there are thousands of blokes who think it's okay to push reluctant women into sex, which is yikesy enough.
Open to contradiction if I've read it wrong!
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I just read the paper, and I'm not entirely satisfied with either mini-précis in the 2 toots above, or indeed the researchers' own framing.
"A sample of 3,011 self-identified men ages 18 to 34 (Mage = 27.31) was recruited in the Spring of 2023 using an online panel (Qualtrics Research Suite) that invited all men who met criteria into the study. The study was described as exploring positive and negative interactions between men and women in sexual situations. The consent form indicated that the survey was men’s opportunity “to provide their side of the story given that we have heard so much from women” about male–female sexual interactions, repeatedly assuring them of their guaranteed anonymity. ...
"Men were eligible if they self-identified as men, were in the age range 18 to 34 years, and reported having had a sexual encounter with a woman in the past 2 years. ...
"Participants were asked “In the past four years, how many times have you used any of the following strategies to get (or try to get) a woman to have some type of sex when she did not want to have sex or acted like she did not want to have sex? (Only women you have recently met—no sex or dating history with them beforehand).”"
So, @gabriel - yes the researchers were focusing on pressure tactics, but this cohort wasn't recruited _from_ people who _already_ said they had pressured women into sex.
On the other hand, @amydiehl, I think the "sexual encounter with a woman in the past 2 years" criterion is a significant distinction from men-of-that-age in general, because there will be men who aren't using the pressure tactics and _haven't_ had sex with a woman in the last 2 years - and those seem to me quite obviously _not_ independent variables. Young men who are just chilling with their friends, or who are "waiting for the right person", or indeed who are isolated and unhappy and never leave their house, simply aren't part of this cohort.
For this reason, even though the paper says
"RQ1: What proportion of men report a history of using strategies to force a woman to have sex?" ... I don't see how they think they're measuring that.It's still valuable for the list of tactics and the relative prevalence of the tactics in relation to each other. And it does of course show that there are thousands of blokes who think it's okay to push reluctant women into sex, which is yikesy enough.
Open to contradiction if I've read it wrong!
@unchartedworlds @amydiehl they say that they picked the men from Reddit, and that they used tactics as asking them to "tell their side" of the story. What I'm seeing is a bias in the sample. It is as if I go to the LGBT friendly park in a city and ask about sexual diversity and self-image. Chances are my sample is not representative of the city population as a whole.
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@unchartedworlds @amydiehl they say that they picked the men from Reddit, and that they used tactics as asking them to "tell their side" of the story. What I'm seeing is a bias in the sample. It is as if I go to the LGBT friendly park in a city and ask about sexual diversity and self-image. Chances are my sample is not representative of the city population as a whole.
I get the principle of what you mean, but I think you've misread what they actually _did_ - in that the people who gave answers on Reddit weren't their main sample that they're reporting on.
It was more like: They used an analysis of the older Reddit answers to see what themes were there, to help them design the questions they would ask in the main bit. Then they got a different lot of people who were the main sample.
I'm not saying the main sample _wasn't_ biased - they describe some of the ways it was, like being primarily US-based, and their own specifications of age range & recent sexual history. But they did a better job than just going via Reddit.
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It has always been like this. In my early 10's, 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's and still now 60's. And long before. Hopefully not long after me.
First sentence introduction:
"What is striking about sexual aggression is that despite decades of research, public health initiatives, education, media attention, and policy focus, there has been no discernible decrease in rates since first assessed in the 1980s and 1990s."@HannahCelsius @amydiehl Interesting 90% or so then!
I had thought there was more predatory attempts since the whole Andrew Tate and masculinity coaching online.
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I get the principle of what you mean, but I think you've misread what they actually _did_ - in that the people who gave answers on Reddit weren't their main sample that they're reporting on.
It was more like: They used an analysis of the older Reddit answers to see what themes were there, to help them design the questions they would ask in the main bit. Then they got a different lot of people who were the main sample.
I'm not saying the main sample _wasn't_ biased - they describe some of the ways it was, like being primarily US-based, and their own specifications of age range & recent sexual history. But they did a better job than just going via Reddit.
@unchartedworlds
I agree, they don't claim that the subjects were chosen via online forums. I was confused with the term "online panel". I don't actually know how they chose.The sample clearly is biased. For instance, the number of men who have more than 1 sexual partner in the US is not 95%, see https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2767066.
