Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
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@KatyElphinstone
Wow ok I have so many thoughts and want to research this back clinically. I’m happy to see this thread getting some action I’ll see what I can throw on and see what others have to say. Keep in mind.
The whole lack of empathy thing is least
. 86-90 years old at least. Plus there’s another angle I have to run down thanks for the thread!
Great
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@KatyElphinstone I like to say there's always another option in a forced binary choice. Like the trolley problem - group A or group B gets killed: you choose. What about slipping the points so the trolley doesn't hit either group? These contrived problems often assume there is no 3rd option, without ever considering if there is one. I think Autistics are much more likely to identify the "3rd option". I've often found myself in work situations where management have identified the "two possible" solutions, and I've been called awkward for asking about the (to me) third option they never even identified.
The Trolley Problem Explained: Navigating Ethical Dilemmas - Philosopedia
Imagine standing near a railway switch as a runaway train hurtles down the track toward five unsuspecting people. You realize immediately that doing nothing
Philosopedia (philosopedia.org)
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The Trolley Problem Explained: Navigating Ethical Dilemmas - Philosopedia
Imagine standing near a railway switch as a runaway train hurtles down the track toward five unsuspecting people. You realize immediately that doing nothing
Philosopedia (philosopedia.org)
@Kierkegaanks I think you're missing the point tbh.
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Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.
In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.
️ #Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic
@KatyElphinstone Reading through the article this part stood put to me.
”””
The researchers tested 13 autistic adults and 13 non-autistic adults on about 50 scenarios similar to the jellyfish example.
”””This sounds like a small sample to me.
I also wonder how they partitioned the sample? If they sorted individuals on behaviour typically seen as ”autistic”, and then tested if the cohort had a higher likelihood of the property they partitioned on, then thet have proven nothing.
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Ooh beautifully put!! I'm bookmarking your post so I don't forget.
@KatyElphinstone Thank you for saying so, it's nice when "makes sense to me" translates for other people too.
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Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
@KatyElphinstone I don’t think it’s necessarily involuntary manslaughter, but speaking as an authority on jellyfish when she wasn’t led to a tragic, fatal consequence. It certainly proves incorrect that infuriatingly pernicious axiom, “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” #actuallyautistic
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@KatyElphinstone I don’t think it’s necessarily involuntary manslaughter, but speaking as an authority on jellyfish when she wasn’t led to a tragic, fatal consequence. It certainly proves incorrect that infuriatingly pernicious axiom, “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” #actuallyautistic
@multipass @KatyElphinstone and the second sentence is vague. Was Janet making statements about a subject she knew nothing about? Or did she “know” for certain that jellyfish are harmless? Did someone lie to Janet? Did Janet have a past experience with some hypothetical stingerless jellyfish?
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@KatyElphinstone Reading through the article this part stood put to me.
”””
The researchers tested 13 autistic adults and 13 non-autistic adults on about 50 scenarios similar to the jellyfish example.
”””This sounds like a small sample to me.
I also wonder how they partitioned the sample? If they sorted individuals on behaviour typically seen as ”autistic”, and then tested if the cohort had a higher likelihood of the property they partitioned on, then thet have proven nothing.
So it's a form of selection bias I suppose. If that were the case, yes.
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Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.
In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.
️ #Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic
Allistics never seem to notice that the less detail they have in front of them, the more assumptions they make. They mentally add information into scenarios & then extrapolate based on what they assumed but did not specify.
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Allistics never seem to notice that the less detail they have in front of them, the more assumptions they make. They mentally add information into scenarios & then extrapolate based on what they assumed but did not specify.
Yes. To be fair, we all do this to some extent. But neurodivergent folk do it less - relying on heuristics I mean.
My feeling is that's also why we get quite tired in unfamiliar contexts. We are taking in a lot more original information.
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@multipass @KatyElphinstone and the second sentence is vague. Was Janet making statements about a subject she knew nothing about? Or did she “know” for certain that jellyfish are harmless? Did someone lie to Janet? Did Janet have a past experience with some hypothetical stingerless jellyfish?
@cinebox @multipass @KatyElphinstone
And what's the relationship between the girls? Why Janet was invested about the authority of knowing about the safety of swimming there? -
@CynAq @KatyElphinstone 'It depends' is the answer to a *lot* of questions.
@CynAq@beige.party @KatyElphinstone@mas.to @wynke@mendeddrum.org
One of the many stickers on the side of our truck... If we had the spoons we would take a pic, but
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https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1740718571/the-custom-sticker-pack-pick-any-5-vinyl
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Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
@KatyElphinstone Don't fucking "reassure" people about things that you don't fucking *know* to be true, particularly where it's a question of safety! Fuck.
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So it's a form of selection bias I suppose. If that were the case, yes.
@KatyElphinstone I think I'd like to take it even a bit further and claim they are begging the question.
Assuming that there's a correct and not-correct mode of experience, then constructing at test that verifies the not-correct mode users as not operating "correctly". This is a text book example of a circular argument.
Use of words like "non-autistic" rather than "allistic" kind of gives this away, although arguably that could also be due to the article being a bit old.
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@KatyElphinstone I think I'd like to take it even a bit further and claim they are begging the question.
Assuming that there's a correct and not-correct mode of experience, then constructing at test that verifies the not-correct mode users as not operating "correctly". This is a text book example of a circular argument.
Use of words like "non-autistic" rather than "allistic" kind of gives this away, although arguably that could also be due to the article being a bit old.
@KatyElphinstone Also a bit curious as to how a bunch of 'aspie' science hippies would would construct a counter experiment, and thereby "proving" the same thing, but with the roles swapped so that allistic is verified as the dysfunctional mode of experience.
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@KatyElphinstone I think I'd like to take it even a bit further and claim they are begging the question.
Assuming that there's a correct and not-correct mode of experience, then constructing at test that verifies the not-correct mode users as not operating "correctly". This is a text book example of a circular argument.
Use of words like "non-autistic" rather than "allistic" kind of gives this away, although arguably that could also be due to the article being a bit old.
Yes, good point.
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@KatyElphinstone The whole "lack of #empathy" idea builds on the #TheoryOfMind idea, which is rotten to the core. The basic paper applying it to #autistics (Baron-Cohen, Leslie, and Frith 1985) got the idea from an irredeemably flawed paper that had applied it to CHIMPANZEES[!] (Premack and Woodruff 1978). Both papers are hopelessly confused about what it even MEANS to say that a person — or an animal — has, or does not have, a "theory of mind". Both of these groups of researchers should have gotten clear on their concepts BEFORE conducting any experiments — and since they didn’t, both papers should have been refused publication.
@dedicto @KatyElphinstone @autistics
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@CynAq@beige.party @KatyElphinstone@mas.to @wynke@mendeddrum.org
One of the many stickers on the side of our truck... If we had the spoons we would take a pic, but️
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1740718571/the-custom-sticker-pack-pick-any-5-vinyl@CynAq@beige.party @KatyElphinstone@mas.to @wynke@mendeddrum.org Had to take the recycling bin from the kitchen to the big bin outside, so an actual picture of the sticker and truck with a bunch of others.
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Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
@KatyElphinstone Reading only your description, I leaned towards "yes, she is to blame, because if she didn't know for sure she should have said so instead of pretending", but after reading the article, I'd lean towards not blaming her, because she had recently read that the jellyfish in the area are harmless, so assuming a reputable source that was actually speaking about the area, she had reason to be confident in her knowledge.
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@KatyElphinstone Reading only your description, I leaned towards "yes, she is to blame, because if she didn't know for sure she should have said so instead of pretending", but after reading the article, I'd lean towards not blaming her, because she had recently read that the jellyfish in the area are harmless, so assuming a reputable source that was actually speaking about the area, she had reason to be confident in her knowledge.
@KatyElphinstone If I (late-diagnosed autistic) imagine what I would feel/do in a situation, is that a sign that I have empathy or lack empathy? (/half-joking)
I'd feel awful and blame myself if anyone, let alone a friend of mine, died because I *carelessly* gave them wrong information. If someone died because I passed on information I was sure was reliable, I'd also feel awful, but blame the source of the misinformation...
