Yesterday Cory Doctorow argued that refusal to use LLMs was mere "neoliberal purity culture".
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@pluralistic I think you can answer these questions yourself.
Suppose you wore a coat made out of mink fur. The minks are already dead, simply wearing the coat won't kill more minks. What does wearing mink fur have to do with cruelty to minks?
Suppose you live in the time of the Luddites. Legislation prohibits trade unions and collective bargaining. Mill owners introduce machines, reducing wages. But you build your own machine. Problem solved? You helping labor or capital?
@skyfaller I think you should be able to answer these questions yourself, but clearly are struggling...
On your mink fur argument: the one ethical way to wear something like that is to only purchase used and old. The harm is done regardless of whether you purchase, you don't increase demand because your refusal to purchase new or recent means there's no profit in it. (This argument is also flawed because it's assuming local LLMs are made for profit when no profit is made on them)
And on your Luddite argument: When someone is using a machine to further oppress workers, the issue is not the machine but the person using it. You attack the machine to deprive them of it. But when an individual is using a completely separate instance of the machine, contributing nothing to those who are using the machine to abuse people... attacking them is simply attacking the worker.
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Also, you're wrong about the Luddites, just as a factual matter. The guilds the Luddites sprang from weren't prohibited by law, they were *protected* by law, and the Luddites' cause wasn't about gaining new protections under statute, but rather, enforcing existing statutory protections.
(Also: the Luddites didn't oppose steam looms or stocking frames; their demands were for fair deployment of these)
@pluralistic Thank you for the fact check. I was paraphrasing that text from the popular Nib comic: https://thenib.com/im-a-luddite/
If this contains factual inaccuracies I will need to do more research and perhaps stop sharing that comic.
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@pluralistic Thank you for the fact check. I was paraphrasing that text from the popular Nib comic: https://thenib.com/im-a-luddite/
If this contains factual inaccuracies I will need to do more research and perhaps stop sharing that comic.
@skyfaller @FediThing @tante I strongly recommend Brian Merchant's "Blood in the Machine" as the best modern history of the Luddites.
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@Colman @FediThing @tante That's interesting. I've never wondered that about you.
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Yesterday Cory Doctorow argued that refusal to use LLMs was mere "neoliberal purity culture". I think his argument is a strawman, doesn't align with his own actions and delegitimizes important political actions we need to make in order to build a better cyberphysical world.
Acting ethically in an imperfect world
Life is complicated. Regardless of what your beliefs or politics or ethics are, the way that we set up our society and economy will often force you to act against them: You might not want to fly somewhere but your employer will not accept another mode of transportation, you want to eat vegan but are […]
Smashing Frames (tante.cc)
@tante cory is, at his heart, a conservative/liberal USian, putting him far to the right of mainstream European thought and politics.
He constantly refuses to apply his beliefs to underlying structures, arguing that AI or enshittification are aberrations in capitalism, refusing to acknowledge and blocking anyone who argues that it's just capitalism acting as intended.
It doesn't surprise me at all that he's acting hypocritically here.
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This is a "fruit of the poisoned tree" argument.
Suppose you use a computer to post to Mastodon, despite the fact that silicon transistors were invented by the eugenicist William Shockley, who spent his Nobel money offering bribes to women of color to be sterlized?
Suppose you sent that Mastodon post on a packet-switched network, despite the fact that this technology was invented by the war criminals at the RAND corporation?
@pluralistic I don't think mink fur or LLMs are comparable to criticizing the origins of the internet or transistors. It's the process that produced mink fur and LLMs that is destructive, not merely that it's made by bad people.
For example, LLM crawlers regularly take down independent websites like Codeberg, DDoSing, threatening the small web. You may say "but my LLM is frozen in time, it's not part of that scraping now", but it would not remain useful without updates.
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Yesterday Cory Doctorow argued that refusal to use LLMs was mere "neoliberal purity culture". I think his argument is a strawman, doesn't align with his own actions and delegitimizes important political actions we need to make in order to build a better cyberphysical world.
Acting ethically in an imperfect world
Life is complicated. Regardless of what your beliefs or politics or ethics are, the way that we set up our society and economy will often force you to act against them: You might not want to fly somewhere but your employer will not accept another mode of transportation, you want to eat vegan but are […]
Smashing Frames (tante.cc)
@tante Frankly, I don't think there are any ethical concerns with how he's using it.
The reason AI is a violation when it trains on openly available data and then outputs similar stuff is that it's creating derivative works. Something that reads everything produced by man and then uses that information to score similar output does NOT. It's completely fair use and it's a GOOD application of AI.
IFF all the evil crap that the people who made it are up to wasn't a concern there'd be none.
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@kel it sounds like your respect is rooted only in someone agreeing with you. If you respected them you'd maybe take a minute to listen to their arguments and ask yourself more about why they might disagree with you.
Namely the fact that you don't understand how "using these products creates further demand" doesn't relate to their arguments at all?
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@pluralistic I don't think mink fur or LLMs are comparable to criticizing the origins of the internet or transistors. It's the process that produced mink fur and LLMs that is destructive, not merely that it's made by bad people.
For example, LLM crawlers regularly take down independent websites like Codeberg, DDoSing, threatening the small web. You may say "but my LLM is frozen in time, it's not part of that scraping now", but it would not remain useful without updates.
No. Literally the same LLM that currently finds punctuation errors will continue to do so. I'm not inventing novel forms of punctuation error that I need an updated LLM to discover.
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Yesterday Cory Doctorow argued that refusal to use LLMs was mere "neoliberal purity culture". I think his argument is a strawman, doesn't align with his own actions and delegitimizes important political actions we need to make in order to build a better cyberphysical world.
Acting ethically in an imperfect world
Life is complicated. Regardless of what your beliefs or politics or ethics are, the way that we set up our society and economy will often force you to act against them: You might not want to fly somewhere but your employer will not accept another mode of transportation, you want to eat vegan but are […]
Smashing Frames (tante.cc)
@tante Well, I mean, he's wrong, so there's that.
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Yesterday Cory Doctorow argued that refusal to use LLMs was mere "neoliberal purity culture". I think his argument is a strawman, doesn't align with his own actions and delegitimizes important political actions we need to make in order to build a better cyberphysical world.
Acting ethically in an imperfect world
Life is complicated. Regardless of what your beliefs or politics or ethics are, the way that we set up our society and economy will often force you to act against them: You might not want to fly somewhere but your employer will not accept another mode of transportation, you want to eat vegan but are […]
Smashing Frames (tante.cc)
@tante I will point out that I don't think that Cory is engaged in erecting a strawman, I think he's making a focused argument.
LLMs are a _big_ topic, and there are so many different ways folks are using them. Some folks _are_ opposed to any use of an LLM because of the reasons he has said, I heard these arguments. I think Cory is bucking this specific argument, and I think he's trying to point out that we can still try to find what is useful amidst what is problematic, and then use it on our own terms.
I disagree with how you seem to have read his position here.
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Yesterday Cory Doctorow argued that refusal to use LLMs was mere "neoliberal purity culture". I think his argument is a strawman, doesn't align with his own actions and delegitimizes important political actions we need to make in order to build a better cyberphysical world.
Acting ethically in an imperfect world
Life is complicated. Regardless of what your beliefs or politics or ethics are, the way that we set up our society and economy will often force you to act against them: You might not want to fly somewhere but your employer will not accept another mode of transportation, you want to eat vegan but are […]
Smashing Frames (tante.cc)
@tante thank you.
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@pluralistic I'd be disappointed if I didn't see myself in the pattern of engaging with people on a post like this who are worlds away from having a fair discussion...
They literally can't see the reality of AI beyond their arguments, they've decided it's inherently evil and wrong and locked in their viewpoint.
So their "russian roulette every day for hours" is because, despite you saying what you use it for, they can't comprehend how it can be used outside of the worst possible use cases.
Same reason they're accusing you of being a libertarian, but that's already the purity culture you were originally calling out.
And this is one of the reasons I've struggled with staying on Mastodon/Fedi, and come and go often.
There's this super hardcore fanatism, not just about LLMs/AI, but other topics as well, and if a person puts one toe on the line, they are eviscerated.
At some point it becomes hard to really engage with people when you have to be careful not to go against the grain. I don't have a thick enough skin to handle people berating me for not thinking exactly like them.
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@pluralistic I don't think mink fur or LLMs are comparable to criticizing the origins of the internet or transistors. It's the process that produced mink fur and LLMs that is destructive, not merely that it's made by bad people.
For example, LLM crawlers regularly take down independent websites like Codeberg, DDoSing, threatening the small web. You may say "but my LLM is frozen in time, it's not part of that scraping now", but it would not remain useful without updates.
@skyfaller Funny thing there... a frozen in time LLM doesn't really lose that much functionality. Most good uses of LLMs don't rely on timely knowledge.
For instance @pluralistic 's use case is checking punctuation and grammar. So an LLM only loses functionality there at the rate grammar fundamentally changes... which is glacially.
Also, not all local LLMs are crawler based. For instance when training on wikipedia data to have more recent and accurate knowledge, they offer a bittorrent download of the whole site contents.
The ones creating problems with crawlers are the ones I'm certain Cory will agree are a problem, the big companies that are competing for investors by constantly throwing more and more data at their model in the drive for increasingly small improvements as the only way they have to compete for investors.
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@skyfaller I think you should be able to answer these questions yourself, but clearly are struggling...
On your mink fur argument: the one ethical way to wear something like that is to only purchase used and old. The harm is done regardless of whether you purchase, you don't increase demand because your refusal to purchase new or recent means there's no profit in it. (This argument is also flawed because it's assuming local LLMs are made for profit when no profit is made on them)
And on your Luddite argument: When someone is using a machine to further oppress workers, the issue is not the machine but the person using it. You attack the machine to deprive them of it. But when an individual is using a completely separate instance of the machine, contributing nothing to those who are using the machine to abuse people... attacking them is simply attacking the worker.
@shiri An used mink coat may not give money directly to mink farmers/killers, but wearing mink fur sends a message about the acceptability of mink. The average passerby can't tell if the mink was bought new. If you walk down the street and there are 10 new mink wearers, the 11th "ethical" mink wearer lends themselves to the message that mink farming is fine, unless they are constantly screaming "this is used mink!" which is strange and obnoxious.
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Which parts of running a model on your own laptop are implicated in "destroying the planet?" How is checking punctuation "stealing labor?" Or, for that matter "giving power over knowledge to LLM owners?"
@pluralistic i'd start with the part that the model probably came pre-trained. Or was it trained by you on your laptop...? @FediThing @tante
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@pluralistic i'd start with the part that the model probably came pre-trained. Or was it trained by you on your laptop...? @FediThing @tante
This is a purity culture argument about the "fruit of the poisoned tree." The silicon in your laptop was invented by a eugenicist. The network your packets transit was invented by war criminals. The satellite the signal travels on was launched on a rocket descended from Nazi designs that were built by death-camp slaves.
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This is a purity culture argument about the "fruit of the poisoned tree." The silicon in your laptop was invented by a eugenicist. The network your packets transit was invented by war criminals. The satellite the signal travels on was launched on a rocket descended from Nazi designs that were built by death-camp slaves.
To be clear, I completely reject this argument as a form of special pleading. Everyone has a reason why *their* fruit of the poisoned tree is OK, but other peoples' fruit of the poisoned tree is immoral.
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No. Literally the same LLM that currently finds punctuation errors will continue to do so. I'm not inventing novel forms of punctuation error that I need an updated LLM to discover.
@pluralistic Ok, fair enough, if spell checking is literally the only thing you use LLMs for.
I still think you wouldn't rely on a 1950s dictionary for checking modern language, and language moves faster on the internet, but I'm willing to concede that point.
I still think a deterministic spell checker could have done the job and not put you in this weird position of defending a technology with wide-reaching negative effects. But I guess your post was for just that purpose.
