It's kind of amazing how many veteran Linux greyhairs I've seen, downstream of the age-check-in-systemd decision, saying well I guess I need to get comfortable with a BSD now.
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@mhoye I still don't see how something like this could possibly be made to work.
Windows, Mac, fine - stop a service running and the whole thing crashes, but open source OSes, almost by definition, are about user choice. Don't want something running in the background? Fine turn it off, no bother.
If age verification is required, but likely is going to be on device, then we'll just make a service that says "Yes, over 18" when asked.
If age verification requires a third party cloud service, then well done they've just broken the internet.@paul Age checks are about letting major platforms escape the costs of moderation, whether or not it the technology works has nothing to do with anything.
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@paul Age checks are about letting major platforms escape the costs of moderation, whether or not it the technology works has nothing to do with anything.
@mhoye yep, absolutely. It's not about keeping kids safe, it's about giving BigTech "well they should only be using it if they're the right age" get out clause.
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@mhoye 33-34 years of Linux here, installed a BSD box into my "production" (for senCloud anyways) network for the first time a few days ago. Loving it so far, feels like Linux used to (in a good way).
@sen Which BSD did you land on?
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It's kind of amazing how many veteran Linux greyhairs I've seen, downstream of the age-check-in-systemd decision, saying well I guess I need to get comfortable with a BSD now. Thirty plus years of deep-grooved Debian/RedHat muscle memory to a one, quietly tidying up and looking for the exits.
@mhoye we all wanted to use bsd all along it was just more convenient to use debian
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@mhoye It's not too hard of a switch to make, and most of us who've been around long enough to remember when using linux basically required some degree of tinkering and futzing to get it working already have the skillset to move elsewhere without much issue.
It's the people who don't have the sort of technical skillset to jump ship to a BSD or distro without age/ID-checks that are really in trouble; I already know that *I* can move to a non-compliant system without much issue.@miss_rodent @mhoye I've kept struggling with how to express it, but I feel like part of the problem has been the pretense that everyone should be their own sysadmin, and that it should be easy to do, so there was a lot of work done to make it *look* easy, which actually made it harder.
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@sen Which BSD did you land on?
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@mhoye That's the interesting thing about being a greyhair in this industry. You've used enough different things to know they're all kinda crap and any kind of emotional buy-in to a piece of software isn't worth it because they all kinda suck in the end.
Plus, y'know, no matter how annoying switching might be, at least you're not using AIX so it could be worse.
@wordshaper @mhoye I feel vindicated for having stayed with #NetBSD for the last 15+ years.
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@miss_rodent @mhoye I've kept struggling with how to express it, but I feel like part of the problem has been the pretense that everyone should be their own sysadmin, and that it should be easy to do, so there was a lot of work done to make it *look* easy, which actually made it harder.
@foolishowl @mhoye If sysadministration were easy, it wouldn't be a reasonably-well-paying job with a pile of associated certifications.
Some of the things added to make life easier for non-sysadmin users have made it harder, especially if things you need to change are outside the scope of whatever convenient interface a distro comes with, or if it interacts strongly with the many-tentacled horror of systemd.
It's a skillset that no one has by default & not everyone can be expected to learn. -
@wordshaper @mhoye I feel vindicated for having stayed with #NetBSD for the last 15+ years.
@bentsukun @mhoye Absolutely! A decade and a half of not using AIX is definitely something to celebrate.
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It's kind of amazing how many veteran Linux greyhairs I've seen, downstream of the age-check-in-systemd decision, saying well I guess I need to get comfortable with a BSD now. Thirty plus years of deep-grooved Debian/RedHat muscle memory to a one, quietly tidying up and looking for the exits.
@mhoye https://www.devuan.org/ is here for you
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@bentsukun @mhoye Absolutely! A decade and a half of not using AIX is definitely something to celebrate.
@wordshaper @mhoye There was this internship in 2001 where I replaced AIX on an obsolete RS/6000 with a hacked up Linux and ran a DNS server on it. That was all the experience I had with AIX.
The RS/6000 has a PowerPC 604e (PReP). At some point, I realized that the office printer *also* had a PPC 604e but a faster one
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@foolishowl @mhoye If sysadministration were easy, it wouldn't be a reasonably-well-paying job with a pile of associated certifications.
Some of the things added to make life easier for non-sysadmin users have made it harder, especially if things you need to change are outside the scope of whatever convenient interface a distro comes with, or if it interacts strongly with the many-tentacled horror of systemd.
It's a skillset that no one has by default & not everyone can be expected to learn.@foolishowl @mhoye When linux was only a thing that programmers, system administrators, and other techy types used, the assumption that everyone could/should be their own sysadmin made more sense - everyone could be assumed to have some tech proficiency, b/c if they didn't, they would still be on DOS/windows anyway.
That hasn't been a safe assumption to make about users for ~20 years though, unless you're a distro like slackware or gentoo that is explicitly not aiming at wide general adoption. -
It's kind of amazing how many veteran Linux greyhairs I've seen, downstream of the age-check-in-systemd decision, saying well I guess I need to get comfortable with a BSD now. Thirty plus years of deep-grooved Debian/RedHat muscle memory to a one, quietly tidying up and looking for the exits.
@mhoye Greybeards whiffed the smells twenty years ago and knew what was coming. It was just a matter of waiting for what comes around to come around.
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It's kind of amazing how many veteran Linux greyhairs I've seen, downstream of the age-check-in-systemd decision, saying well I guess I need to get comfortable with a BSD now. Thirty plus years of deep-grooved Debian/RedHat muscle memory to a one, quietly tidying up and looking for the exits.
@mhoye i'm pleased NetBSD is getting more attention these days.
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@mhoye That's the interesting thing about being a greyhair in this industry. You've used enough different things to know they're all kinda crap and any kind of emotional buy-in to a piece of software isn't worth it because they all kinda suck in the end.
Plus, y'know, no matter how annoying switching might be, at least you're not using AIX so it could be worse.
@wordshaper @mhoye or HP/UX
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It's kind of amazing how many veteran Linux greyhairs I've seen, downstream of the age-check-in-systemd decision, saying well I guess I need to get comfortable with a BSD now. Thirty plus years of deep-grooved Debian/RedHat muscle memory to a one, quietly tidying up and looking for the exits.
@mhoye we were a solaris shop until we made the switch to Red Hat.
Interesting times
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@mhoye we all wanted to use bsd all along it was just more convenient to use debian
@airshipper @mhoye yeah the latest debian stable isn't even that stable anymore, I've been meaning to return to netbsd for a while now and with generative "AI" in the Linux kernel I——waitaminute did you say age verification in systemd
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@airshipper @mhoye yeah the latest debian stable isn't even that stable anymore, I've been meaning to return to netbsd for a while now and with generative "AI" in the Linux kernel I——waitaminute did you say age verification in systemd
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It's kind of amazing how many veteran Linux greyhairs I've seen, downstream of the age-check-in-systemd decision, saying well I guess I need to get comfortable with a BSD now. Thirty plus years of deep-grooved Debian/RedHat muscle memory to a one, quietly tidying up and looking for the exits.
@mhoye do you have any insight into how the hell the age check even made it a whole hour into Linux in the first place? It's possible I'm being hopelessly naïve here, but I really thought every Linux user/admin/programmer/whoever would've literally rioted in the streets before countenancing anything remotely like it.
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@mhoye That's the interesting thing about being a greyhair in this industry. You've used enough different things to know they're all kinda crap and any kind of emotional buy-in to a piece of software isn't worth it because they all kinda suck in the end.
Plus, y'know, no matter how annoying switching might be, at least you're not using AIX so it could be worse.
@wordshaper @mhoye @algernon AIX had smit. That was a really great idea. I was a big fan of the 6150.
