I understand but lament the choice so many thoughtful people have made to publish their newsletters on the odious Substack.
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@abhayakara I always just do the best I can, it's impossible to boycott or move on from everything with shitty people on them or running them.
I don't use any Meta products for example to the point I have a pihole to try and fully block their tracking. I still use Google though they've proven time and time again to do shitty things. I have moved from Chrome and experiment with other search engines, but still heavily use their office suite and Gmail.
We quit Target but still use Walmart who is just as bad but the devil you know I guess.
All that to say, for me when a company hits a breaking point where I no longer feel comfortable, that's when I leave.
It's an imperfect world and we're humans, don't beat yourself up to much about this stuff.
The only quibble I would make with this is that if you are doing what makes sense, you shouldn't beat yourself up about it.
I've been a U.S. citizen my whole life, and my country has engaged in many wars I find reprehensible.
Should I have renounced my citizenship? No. It's my country, no more or less than theirs.
Is there no alternative to Walmart? The alternative they closed for me was mine. I want it back, but meanwhile I have to live. It's not wrong to choose to live.
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The only quibble I would make with this is that if you are doing what makes sense, you shouldn't beat yourself up about it.
I've been a U.S. citizen my whole life, and my country has engaged in many wars I find reprehensible.
Should I have renounced my citizenship? No. It's my country, no more or less than theirs.
Is there no alternative to Walmart? The alternative they closed for me was mine. I want it back, but meanwhile I have to live. It's not wrong to choose to live.
How this relates to substack is of course still a matter for debate: there _are_ alternatives. But each of the alternatives I've found is (a lot) more work and has less reach, as far as I can tell.
Of the lot of them, Patreon is probably the best, but they seem to be wandering down the enshittification highway, so we'll see.
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@abhayakara they are not just platforming. They are promoting.
I keep hearing people say this. Possibly it's true. But why do I keep hearing these assertions without backup? Like, you could have said "look here at what they are doing." But you didn't. Why didn't you?
If they are indeed promoting nazis, how are they doing that? Do you mean because they have a best seller chart and Tate is on top? Or something else? If it's something else, please point me to a clear analysis of this—I haven't been able to find one.
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How this relates to substack is of course still a matter for debate: there _are_ alternatives. But each of the alternatives I've found is (a lot) more work and has less reach, as far as I can tell.
Of the lot of them, Patreon is probably the best, but they seem to be wandering down the enshittification highway, so we'll see.
it's not that complicated
andrew tate is a piece of shit
that substack platforms him is repugnant enough for many people that they just won't use substack
some won't care. well, fuck them
some worry that the air they breathe contains some molecules that were once also breathed by stalin, so they'll stop breathing. yeah these people are a bit much: you follow coherent connections, and apply pressure where it is worth it
it's a balance in life, always
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I understand but lament the choice so many thoughtful people have made to publish their newsletters on the odious Substack. Surely they recognize that they are, at least indirectly, helping some of the worst people in the world spread and monetize malignant views.
@dangillmor i did have to block substack from loading or being suggested in searches. I find it more functional to focus my energy on things I want to see thrive. Depriving capitalists of profits and amplification is a major plus side of this approach.
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I guess this is the Nazi bar analogy, and I sort of get that. But I have a few questions.
First, and I know this is a bit reductio ad absurdum, but bear with me, should we boycott comcast because they let Andrew Tate use their wires? If not, where is the dividing line?
Second, I guess the argument here is that they are platforming an asshole, and using their non-asshole bloggers as leverage. Why doesn't this work in both directions? Can't I plunder Andrew Tate's followers?
@abhayakara @dangillmor Elevating rapists so you can access his true believers?! 🤮
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I understand but lament the choice so many thoughtful people have made to publish their newsletters on the odious Substack. Surely they recognize that they are, at least indirectly, helping some of the worst people in the world spread and monetize malignant views.
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I understand but lament the choice so many thoughtful people have made to publish their newsletters on the odious Substack. Surely they recognize that they are, at least indirectly, helping some of the worst people in the world spread and monetize malignant views.
@dangillmor
No, they simply don't know.
And probably 99% have never heard of Andrew Tate. I would not have heard of it if I had not seen it mentioned several times on posts like this, and eventually searched. -
@dangillmor I wish people would take on Stripe.
Substack has great Palestinian content as well.
In my mind, it's about who takes the money. Stripe.
But that's perhaps too inconvenient for those that use Stripe.
@knowprose @dangillmor What's the alternative to Stripe? PayPal, Bitcoin et. al., surely not.
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The only quibble I would make with this is that if you are doing what makes sense, you shouldn't beat yourself up about it.
I've been a U.S. citizen my whole life, and my country has engaged in many wars I find reprehensible.
Should I have renounced my citizenship? No. It's my country, no more or less than theirs.
Is there no alternative to Walmart? The alternative they closed for me was mine. I want it back, but meanwhile I have to live. It's not wrong to choose to live.
@abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey
Boycotting a company is called "voting with your wallet".Because it's the option that comes closest to what you should do as a citizen - not renounce your citizenship, but vote.
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it's not that complicated
andrew tate is a piece of shit
that substack platforms him is repugnant enough for many people that they just won't use substack
some won't care. well, fuck them
some worry that the air they breathe contains some molecules that were once also breathed by stalin, so they'll stop breathing. yeah these people are a bit much: you follow coherent connections, and apply pressure where it is worth it
it's a balance in life, always
@benroyce @abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey
no perfect answer but imo "connections" is not enough. this is what most of the fedi gets wrong re refusing to federate with servers with users with bad opinions. moderate unwanted tagging harshly like we do spam, but allow chosen connections like we do browsing.
more meaningful concerns are funding and promotion. Substack both has a financial relationship and chooses to spread the ideas of shitty people. avoiding paying taxes for wars would be nice.
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I understand but lament the choice so many thoughtful people have made to publish their newsletters on the odious Substack. Surely they recognize that they are, at least indirectly, helping some of the worst people in the world spread and monetize malignant views.
@dangillmor if anyone needs help to set up Ghost for newsletters on @Pikapods for two and a half dollars per month, let me know! It’s absurdly good and easy and cheap!
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@knowprose @dangillmor What's the alternative to Stripe? PayPal, Bitcoin et. al., surely not.
@vk6flab @dangillmor there's the question.
Uncomfortable, ain't it?
I can't use any of them where I am.
Maybe that's why it's not inconvenient for me to ask.
Demonizing a content platform just tries to put a platform out of business so people go elsewhere. It's doing someone's job for them.
Meanwhile, the people that are the problem just start their own platform and use Stripe. Again.
Moving the problem is not the same as solving it.
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@benroyce @abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey
no perfect answer but imo "connections" is not enough. this is what most of the fedi gets wrong re refusing to federate with servers with users with bad opinions. moderate unwanted tagging harshly like we do spam, but allow chosen connections like we do browsing.
more meaningful concerns are funding and promotion. Substack both has a financial relationship and chooses to spread the ideas of shitty people. avoiding paying taxes for wars would be nice.
@wjmaggos @abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey
william you're responding to an account that purposefully seeks out, mocks, and goads vatniks into saying things i can report them on to get them suspended
nuke all vatnik accounts
and any server that won't nuke them, nuke the server
period
it's not "bad opinions" william
it's malicious assholes vomiting kremlin lies for ethnofascism and imperialism
someone who says "avoiding paying taxes for wars would be nice" should be able to get behind that need
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@wjmaggos @abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey
william you're responding to an account that purposefully seeks out, mocks, and goads vatniks into saying things i can report them on to get them suspended
nuke all vatnik accounts
and any server that won't nuke them, nuke the server
period
it's not "bad opinions" william
it's malicious assholes vomiting kremlin lies for ethnofascism and imperialism
someone who says "avoiding paying taxes for wars would be nice" should be able to get behind that need
@benroyce @abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey
we strongly disagree re doing this but we both know this. probably not worth debating it again.
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I understand but lament the choice so many thoughtful people have made to publish their newsletters on the odious Substack. Surely they recognize that they are, at least indirectly, helping some of the worst people in the world spread and monetize malignant views.
Why use Substack, when Ghost is right there...
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I understand but lament the choice so many thoughtful people have made to publish their newsletters on the odious Substack. Surely they recognize that they are, at least indirectly, helping some of the worst people in the world spread and monetize malignant views.
@dangillmor
@jaykuo
maybe move over to beehive? -
@benroyce @abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey
we strongly disagree re doing this but we both know this. probably not worth debating it again.
@wjmaggos @abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey
indeed i consider your position naive at best
bigots and prideful ignorants have zero place on the fediverse
any server that won't act on them needs to be excised from the fediverse
i cannot fathom why you don't understand that this imperative is the bedrock of the ethos of a community you enjoy being part of, while not understanding what it takes to protect that community
if shitwits want to vomit their hate somewhere, they have twitter. fuck them
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@wjmaggos @abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey
indeed i consider your position naive at best
bigots and prideful ignorants have zero place on the fediverse
any server that won't act on them needs to be excised from the fediverse
i cannot fathom why you don't understand that this imperative is the bedrock of the ethos of a community you enjoy being part of, while not understanding what it takes to protect that community
if shitwits want to vomit their hate somewhere, they have twitter. fuck them
@benroyce @abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey
the fedi should be as open as the internet and as protective as email with spam blocking software. this best balances interactions we each decide we want with helping everyone avoid those they don't want. my community includes my family members who have opinions I hate. your prescription is a very small fedi that feeds groupthink. see how Dems and the further left vehemently disagree re Gaza and so many other issues.
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@wjmaggos @abhayakara @TheStoneDonkey
indeed i consider your position naive at best
bigots and prideful ignorants have zero place on the fediverse
any server that won't act on them needs to be excised from the fediverse
i cannot fathom why you don't understand that this imperative is the bedrock of the ethos of a community you enjoy being part of, while not understanding what it takes to protect that community
if shitwits want to vomit their hate somewhere, they have twitter. fuck them
@benroyce @wjmaggos@liberal.city @abhayakara I'm not sure why you're taking this out of the thread, I don't think anyone was suggesting a like of bigots or wanting to give a voice here.
I'm certain there's businesses you use daily that still use Twitter, have you dropped them all?
Like I said it's an imperfect world, I don't use substack for the reasons you're arguing, the same reason I don't use Facebook or Twitter, I can't stand the people who run or are on those platforms.
That said it's impossible to divorce yourself of every platform tied to a shitty person, you do the best you can and move on with your life.
No one in that thread was advocating turning the fediverse into a cesspool, if anything he was trying to determine his best path forward which at least shows some forethought.
