As the news is reporting, sadly there was a terrible plane crash at LaGuardia Airport at 23:38 local last night.
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@adamshostack
Yupppp, exactly. Bring back the CSRB! Aviation makes me jealous. We as an industry have much to learn from them.
@paul_ipv6 @boblord @wendynather@chillybot @adamshostack @paul_ipv6 @boblord @wendynather another plug for another group doing yeoman's work... US Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board. I use these constantly to demonstrate how to explain VERY complicated problems to people clearly, and identify fundamental structural changes that can improve things.
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Okay I watched the second NTSB press briefing twice yesterday and have some juicy deets to dish out for you fine folks. Some of this was previously available/self evident but I wanted to wait a bit for the NTSB to do its thing. Here we go
Longer post so maybe bookmark and read later. First off, as the chairwoman succinctly emphasized: If a airline crash happens, many things likely went wrong. Flying is so safe because it has defense in depth built in. I personally would like to say we must resist the very natural desire to focus on "okay, who f'ed up". This is a search for the truth.
The controller clearly at least twice told the truck to stop before the crash
Two controllers were in the air traffic control tower cab (in layman's terms, the top most part of the tower with windows where the active ATCs oversee things and work) at the time. They had just gone on duty for the "midnight" (22:30-06:30) shift at ~22:30ish local time.
There is conflicting information on which air traffic controller was in charge of operations on the ground.
The controllers at the time were dealing with another emergency on the ground. So there was a heavy workload on controllers who were also working multiple positions. NTSB cautions about talking about "controller distraction" as they were doing their job.
The controllers were doing combined positions since it was the midnight shift. This is the standard operating procedure for a lot of airports, including Newark. (See other #ChillyATCAdventures posts). The chairwoman has concerns about this nationwide common practice and so do I.
Conflicting reports on how many certified ATCs were in the facility overall. ATCs are supposed to take periodic breaks and be relieved by another controller.
The truck did not have a transponder to report its location. The airport did have airport surface detection equipment (ASDE-X) but the ground radar did not alert since the proximity of multiple ARFF trucks caused the system to have low confidence.
The automatic runway status lights were operational and indicated it was not clear to cross the runway
Chairwoman Homendy is awesome, as usual
@chillybot obviously I feel for everyone involved but I listened to the ATC recording afterwards and couldn't help feel like that ATC is going to fully blame themselves.
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@chillybot @adamshostack @paul_ipv6 @boblord @wendynather another plug for another group doing yeoman's work... US Chemical Safety and Hazard Investigation Board. I use these constantly to demonstrate how to explain VERY complicated problems to people clearly, and identify fundamental structural changes that can improve things.
@petrillic @chillybot @adamshostack @paul_ipv6 @boblord Whoa, great callout!
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Did you get any sense as to whether they'd be looking at the FAA's practice of granting anticipatory clearance as a potential factor?
@DaveMWilburn
To explain for others, anticipatory clearance in this case refers to the practice of essentially preventing the runway from being used by anyone other than the plane cleared to land. ATCs in the US do not currently do this while a lot of Europe does.Regarding the briefing, I do not believe this specifically was discussed. That being said yesterday was the first full day of investigation and I think the NTSB will likely look into it.
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@DaveMWilburn
To explain for others, anticipatory clearance in this case refers to the practice of essentially preventing the runway from being used by anyone other than the plane cleared to land. ATCs in the US do not currently do this while a lot of Europe does.Regarding the briefing, I do not believe this specifically was discussed. That being said yesterday was the first full day of investigation and I think the NTSB will likely look into it.
@chillybot I was under the impression that "anticipatory clearance" is an American FAA practice, unusual elsewhere in the world, of granting clearance to inbound aircraft before the runway is clear, in anticipation of any preceding aircraft and other obstacles clearing the runway before their arrival. Am I wrong?
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@chillybot I was under the impression that "anticipatory clearance" is an American FAA practice, unusual elsewhere in the world, of granting clearance to inbound aircraft before the runway is clear, in anticipation of any preceding aircraft and other obstacles clearing the runway before their arrival. Am I wrong?
@DaveMWilburn
You are not! I forgot a not haha Your phrasing is indeed better -
@adamshostack
Yupppp, exactly. Bring back the CSRB! Aviation makes me jealous. We as an industry have much to learn from them.
@paul_ipv6 @boblord @wendynather@chillybot @adamshostack @paul_ipv6 @boblord @wendynather the best incident report ive read was written by someone who was given zero guidance on how to investigate, but he was previously an aviator, so he just did what he knew.
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@chillybot @adamshostack @paul_ipv6 @boblord @wendynather the best incident report ive read was written by someone who was given zero guidance on how to investigate, but he was previously an aviator, so he just did what he knew.
@TindrasGrove @wendynather @chillybot @paul_ipv6 @boblord Must.. reinvent.. wheel!
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@TindrasGrove @wendynather @chillybot @paul_ipv6 @boblord Must.. reinvent.. wheel!
@adamshostack @wendynather @chillybot @paul_ipv6 @boblord
Just change all the acronyms and no one will know you just copy/pasted entire manuals -
Okay I watched the second NTSB press briefing twice yesterday and have some juicy deets to dish out for you fine folks. Some of this was previously available/self evident but I wanted to wait a bit for the NTSB to do its thing. Here we go
Longer post so maybe bookmark and read later. First off, as the chairwoman succinctly emphasized: If a airline crash happens, many things likely went wrong. Flying is so safe because it has defense in depth built in. I personally would like to say we must resist the very natural desire to focus on "okay, who f'ed up". This is a search for the truth.
The controller clearly at least twice told the truck to stop before the crash
Two controllers were in the air traffic control tower cab (in layman's terms, the top most part of the tower with windows where the active ATCs oversee things and work) at the time. They had just gone on duty for the "midnight" (22:30-06:30) shift at ~22:30ish local time.
There is conflicting information on which air traffic controller was in charge of operations on the ground.
The controllers at the time were dealing with another emergency on the ground. So there was a heavy workload on controllers who were also working multiple positions. NTSB cautions about talking about "controller distraction" as they were doing their job.
The controllers were doing combined positions since it was the midnight shift. This is the standard operating procedure for a lot of airports, including Newark. (See other #ChillyATCAdventures posts). The chairwoman has concerns about this nationwide common practice and so do I.
Conflicting reports on how many certified ATCs were in the facility overall. ATCs are supposed to take periodic breaks and be relieved by another controller.
The truck did not have a transponder to report its location. The airport did have airport surface detection equipment (ASDE-X) but the ground radar did not alert since the proximity of multiple ARFF trucks caused the system to have low confidence.
The automatic runway status lights were operational and indicated it was not clear to cross the runway
Chairwoman Homendy is awesome, as usual
@chillybot @rpmik In defense of ATC handling multiple positions after midnight: there's very little traffic at an airport between midnight and maybe 5 AM. I'm not saying that it was OK to do so in this particular situation because I don't know the details of the situation. I'm just saying that it is reasonable to have less staff in the middle of the night than, say, in the morning between 8 AM and 11 AM.
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@chillybot @rpmik In defense of ATC handling multiple positions after midnight: there's very little traffic at an airport between midnight and maybe 5 AM. I'm not saying that it was OK to do so in this particular situation because I don't know the details of the situation. I'm just saying that it is reasonable to have less staff in the middle of the night than, say, in the morning between 8 AM and 11 AM.
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@chillybot @rpmik I bet it gets zoo like when weather delays have flights arriving much later than originally expected. But I'd also hope that they'd be able to modify scheduling on the fly to handle things like that. Maybe I'm just expecting too much of them.
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@adamshostack @wendynather @chillybot @paul_ipv6 @boblord
Just change all the acronyms and no one will know you just copy/pasted entire manuals@TindrasGrove @adamshostack @wendynather @chillybot @paul_ipv6 @boblord I knew when co-authoring a small subset of the manuals that there was a good shot they’d be ignored, but it’s profoundly difficult to see best practices eroded into nothingness.
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@TindrasGrove @adamshostack @wendynather @chillybot @paul_ipv6 @boblord I knew when co-authoring a small subset of the manuals that there was a good shot they’d be ignored, but it’s profoundly difficult to see best practices eroded into nothingness.
@Tarah @TindrasGrove @adamshostack @chillybot @paul_ipv6 @boblord Have you been in infosec long?
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@TindrasGrove @wendynather @chillybot @paul_ipv6 @boblord Must.. reinvent.. wheel!
@adamshostack @TindrasGrove @wendynather @chillybot @paul_ipv6 @boblord RaaS, roundness in the cloud is just somebody else's wheel
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Okay I watched the second NTSB press briefing twice yesterday and have some juicy deets to dish out for you fine folks. Some of this was previously available/self evident but I wanted to wait a bit for the NTSB to do its thing. Here we go
Longer post so maybe bookmark and read later. First off, as the chairwoman succinctly emphasized: If a airline crash happens, many things likely went wrong. Flying is so safe because it has defense in depth built in. I personally would like to say we must resist the very natural desire to focus on "okay, who f'ed up". This is a search for the truth.
The controller clearly at least twice told the truck to stop before the crash
Two controllers were in the air traffic control tower cab (in layman's terms, the top most part of the tower with windows where the active ATCs oversee things and work) at the time. They had just gone on duty for the "midnight" (22:30-06:30) shift at ~22:30ish local time.
There is conflicting information on which air traffic controller was in charge of operations on the ground.
The controllers at the time were dealing with another emergency on the ground. So there was a heavy workload on controllers who were also working multiple positions. NTSB cautions about talking about "controller distraction" as they were doing their job.
The controllers were doing combined positions since it was the midnight shift. This is the standard operating procedure for a lot of airports, including Newark. (See other #ChillyATCAdventures posts). The chairwoman has concerns about this nationwide common practice and so do I.
Conflicting reports on how many certified ATCs were in the facility overall. ATCs are supposed to take periodic breaks and be relieved by another controller.
The truck did not have a transponder to report its location. The airport did have airport surface detection equipment (ASDE-X) but the ground radar did not alert since the proximity of multiple ARFF trucks caused the system to have low confidence.
The automatic runway status lights were operational and indicated it was not clear to cross the runway
Chairwoman Homendy is awesome, as usual
@chillybot hi. Your avatar is awesome
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