I would like to give an update on "federation" on Bluesky.
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@mat @eniko "but where are replies to those posts coming from in this setup?"
Short version: "You can't get them"
Long version: Currently the only ways to get replies to a post published in your Bluesky PDS are
- Run a "relay". This means (this is not a joke) receiving from Bluesky PBC a copy of literally every post made in the network, and filtering for ones that @ you.
- Log in to bsky.app (or a clone like blacksky) with your PDS username and password, and look in the notifications tab.
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@mat @eniko "but where are replies to those posts coming from in this setup?"
Short version: "You can't get them"
Long version: Currently the only ways to get replies to a post published in your Bluesky PDS are
- Run a "relay". This means (this is not a joke) receiving from Bluesky PBC a copy of literally every post made in the network, and filtering for ones that @ you.
- Log in to bsky.app (or a clone like blacksky) with your PDS username and password, and look in the notifications tab.
@mat @eniko Now, that last thing is possible, and even easy. But at that point it's really, super unclear *why* you would architect your Wordpress server to *be* a PDS, rather than running the regular PDS software on the same box, and having the Wordpress server post to it from time to time using the external API. It's extra work, but there's no obvious advantage and there's barely even a difference.
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@mcc @erincandescent I have a system that doesn't need blockchain. Instead it uses a "nocoin" (term I coined, pardon the pun) distributed notary system that doesn't have a ledger because there's no way to enumerate things that have been recorded, only to prove that a particular thing was seen by a notary at a particular time.
@mcc @erincandescent The concept is that you intentionally preclude the possibility of detecting "double-spend" so that the system can't be used for exchanging things of value. As a bonus, this also precludes selling identities. It's impossible to prove you're not keeping hidden an earlier-dated transfer to a different new owner when you offer to transfer an identity for money.
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@mat @eniko Now, that last thing is possible, and even easy. But at that point it's really, super unclear *why* you would architect your Wordpress server to *be* a PDS, rather than running the regular PDS software on the same box, and having the Wordpress server post to it from time to time using the external API. It's extra work, but there's no obvious advantage and there's barely even a difference.
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@mat @mcc @eniko yeah, because you need sync, afaik. https://atproto.com/specs/sync
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@mat @thisismissem @eniko The continuous event streams are HTTP. Mine are being proxied through Apache
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@mcc @erincandescent The concept is that you intentionally preclude the possibility of detecting "double-spend" so that the system can't be used for exchanging things of value. As a bonus, this also precludes selling identities. It's impossible to prove you're not keeping hidden an earlier-dated transfer to a different new owner when you offer to transfer an identity for money.
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@mat @thisismissem @eniko The continuous event streams are HTTP. Mine are being proxied through Apache
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@mcc I do, yeah. So it's just one part of the stack. The complicated parts come later, eh?
@tylercook Yes, correct. If you already have a setup for hosting Docker containers standing up the PDS is *trivial*. Like, you could do it in under an hour. I don't pay per byte of bandwidth (VPS) but the load from running my PDS has been so low I don't notice it. And if it turns out to be a problem you can migrate out to another PDS.
I'm going to DM you a link to a Discord I found helpful when debugging issues with my PDS.
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@thisismissem @mat @eniko Okay, yes, that's more accurate.
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@fleeky 1. Correct
2. I don't know@mcc am having a discussion of this on bsky that is helping to disambiguate :
https://bsky.app/profile/futur.blue/post/3lyuzwzb2k226
also https://github.com/zeppelin-social/bluesky-appview -
@thisismissem @mat @eniko Okay, yes, that's more accurate.
@mcc @mat @eniko so yeah, I was more saying PHP and WebSockets isn't likely to be the most pleasant time for someone. (much like Ruby and WebSockets)
But yeah, if you're suggesting a sidecar PDS to a wordpress blog that just publishes bluesky posts with a link to the wordpress post, then that'd be relatively simple. It's once you want to go beyond that that things start getting hard.
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@erincandescent @mcc Nope. Recovery is one of the primary considerations. Unless you intentionally want recovery to be impossible (some people may), you have a recovery policy notarized (can be published or kept unpublished in safe storage you control) prior to any use of the identity. Then proof of conditions satisfying the recovery policy preempt any transfer of control that took place later during a compromise.
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@mcc @erincandescent The concept is that you intentionally preclude the possibility of detecting "double-spend" so that the system can't be used for exchanging things of value. As a bonus, this also precludes selling identities. It's impossible to prove you're not keeping hidden an earlier-dated transfer to a different new owner when you offer to transfer an identity for money.
@dalias @erincandescent I understand how such a system would work but I would not use it for at least two reasons
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@erincandescent @mcc Nope. Recovery is one of the primary considerations. Unless you intentionally want recovery to be impossible (some people may), you have a recovery policy notarized (can be published or kept unpublished in safe storage you control) prior to any use of the identity. Then proof of conditions satisfying the recovery policy preempt any transfer of control that took place later during a compromise.
@erincandescent @mcc And in my view, "not usable for money" is a prerequisite for "usable as identity". Related: the whole market for buying popular browser extensions to put malware in them.
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Why does the "relay" matter? Well, because although Bluesky's claim is that moderation is "composable" in their system— that you can choose which moderators to follow— moderation decisions made by Bluesky are hard binding on systems they control. Someone blocked by Bluesky is blocked from the Bluesky appview, their content will get removed from the Bluesky PDS if they were using that. The Bluesky relay censors content that violates the data "schema"; I suspect (?) it enforces moderation also.
@mcc I don't think the last part is true. Their relay implementation is open source also. Trying to find more info about this
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@mat @eniko Well, point of order. Do I want to work together? If so, why? I have no incentive or desire to badmouth Bluesky specifically, but also, do I have any incentive to grow their ecosystem or help their corporate project? All I want to do is talk to people. The only ATP dev I've done has been because it makes it easier for me to talk people.
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And that's why I say, TLDR:
- I am legitimately excited about the work being done by Blacksky Algorithms! I am using their frontend and happy with it.
- Northsky is an interesting development to watch
- If you're on a Bluesky PDS, I recommend migrating off with one of these tools https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:ii5jchdzlmcojjw4dqczcgkh/post/3lyt6t6qfa22u
- Everything Sucks. A LOT of things would have to change at a social level for *any* entity other than Bluesky to have power or independence in the ATP ecosystem. I still don't trust Bluesky.
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Why does the "relay" matter? Well, because although Bluesky's claim is that moderation is "composable" in their system— that you can choose which moderators to follow— moderation decisions made by Bluesky are hard binding on systems they control. Someone blocked by Bluesky is blocked from the Bluesky appview, their content will get removed from the Bluesky PDS if they were using that. The Bluesky relay censors content that violates the data "schema"; I suspect (?) it enforces moderation also.
@mcc Content doesn’t get removed from the PDS it would be hidden by labels - accounts do have takedown labels applied.
Bluesky operated relay doesn’t censor Lexicons that don’t validate and it doesn’t enforce moderation.
For those following along at home the relay costs about $30/month to run for all ~38M accounts worth of content.
