"Zelensky says allies asked him to scale back attacks on Russian energy"
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@benroyce @roblosricos @Npars01 One of my brighter students referred to China’s economy as “managed free market”. It’s a lovely tongue in cheek observation.
Further, I grew up in a capitalist UK economy that coexisted with a socialist welfare state. Aspects of Xi’s China have some similarities to mid 20th century UK Labour attempts at a halfway house. Fortunately, China doesn’t have a Tory Party dominating the national media, so the social projects should last longer.
@Tattered @roblosricos @Npars01
ah
so you believe, under an autocratic system as in china, as opposed to a democratic system as in the uk, that there is a better chance for plutocratic forces to fade and socialist forces to dominate
that's a very interesting belief my friend, to put it as mildly as possible
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@Tattered @roblosricos @Npars01
ah
so you believe, under an autocratic system as in china, as opposed to a democratic system as in the uk, that there is a better chance for plutocratic forces to fade and socialist forces to dominate
that's a very interesting belief my friend, to put it as mildly as possible
@benroyce @roblosricos @Npars01
I think it would be fair to say that we would agree that the Republican Party, or the UK Conservative Party, and the Murdoch press are working counter to the interests of the working people.
Capitalism exists everywhere. Social projects are the only way that socialist governments can operate *within* a capitalist economy, like the Uruguayan example. Xi’s domestic policies are socialist in much the same way.
Do I think Xi should be President for life? No.
Do I think he deserves credit for lifting millions of people out of poverty and for increasing commitment to renewable energy? Yes.I think I’d even praise DJT if he did these things. But we both know it’s a safe bet that he never would.
Do I trust the Chinese system to keep the working class safe under any leader? No (See the Cultural Revolution).
Do I trust capitalist parliamentarianism? Also no.I am, I hope, not entirely a fool.
I know we have differences of opinion. We also share many of the same hopes.
I think it’s important to celebrate gains that are made towards those goals, even in systems we cannot wholeheartedly support.
Do I trust Xi entirely? No.
Do I think he has done more good for the people of the world than DJT, Netanyahu, MBS, or Putin? Yes. -
@benroyce @roblosricos @Npars01
I think it would be fair to say that we would agree that the Republican Party, or the UK Conservative Party, and the Murdoch press are working counter to the interests of the working people.
Capitalism exists everywhere. Social projects are the only way that socialist governments can operate *within* a capitalist economy, like the Uruguayan example. Xi’s domestic policies are socialist in much the same way.
Do I think Xi should be President for life? No.
Do I think he deserves credit for lifting millions of people out of poverty and for increasing commitment to renewable energy? Yes.I think I’d even praise DJT if he did these things. But we both know it’s a safe bet that he never would.
Do I trust the Chinese system to keep the working class safe under any leader? No (See the Cultural Revolution).
Do I trust capitalist parliamentarianism? Also no.I am, I hope, not entirely a fool.
I know we have differences of opinion. We also share many of the same hopes.
I think it’s important to celebrate gains that are made towards those goals, even in systems we cannot wholeheartedly support.
Do I trust Xi entirely? No.
Do I think he has done more good for the people of the world than DJT, Netanyahu, MBS, or Putin? Yes.@Tattered @roblosricos @Npars01
nothing good comes out of authoritarianism
the democratic world is rotting under the forces of plutocracy, and will wind up as authoritarian if we don't get a handle on it
which is where china already is
china's success is due to capitalism, not socialism. and as a rights-trampling autocracy its plutocrat fate is already written
the solution, as you said
uruguay
democracy
strong social-democratic tradition
robust welfare state
champion uruguay
not china
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@Tattered @roblosricos @Npars01
nothing good comes out of authoritarianism
the democratic world is rotting under the forces of plutocracy, and will wind up as authoritarian if we don't get a handle on it
which is where china already is
china's success is due to capitalism, not socialism. and as a rights-trampling autocracy its plutocrat fate is already written
the solution, as you said
uruguay
democracy
strong social-democratic tradition
robust welfare state
champion uruguay
not china
@benroyce @roblosricos @Npars01 There are as many problems with democracy, as far as I can see.
No British Prime Minister has supported broad socialist policies since Wilson.
Democracies have been responsible for far more wars of aggression in my lifetime than autocracies.
European democracies are tending toward fascism, on a sliding scale from Orban to Macron deliberately obstructing the public choice of a socialist prime minister.
If we compare Xi with Obama, one of these leaders was engaged in overseas wars of aggression, in which he oversaw the use of drone warfare, with resultant civilian casualties. One of these leaders has also raised millions of his citizens out of abject poverty.
Democracy as an ideal is better than authoritarianism as an ideal. However, a number of fascist dictators have been installed by the democratic process, including Hitler. I live in a democracy that has had single-party rule for all but two short periods in its postwar history.
1/2
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@benroyce @roblosricos @Npars01 There are as many problems with democracy, as far as I can see.
No British Prime Minister has supported broad socialist policies since Wilson.
Democracies have been responsible for far more wars of aggression in my lifetime than autocracies.
European democracies are tending toward fascism, on a sliding scale from Orban to Macron deliberately obstructing the public choice of a socialist prime minister.
If we compare Xi with Obama, one of these leaders was engaged in overseas wars of aggression, in which he oversaw the use of drone warfare, with resultant civilian casualties. One of these leaders has also raised millions of his citizens out of abject poverty.
Democracy as an ideal is better than authoritarianism as an ideal. However, a number of fascist dictators have been installed by the democratic process, including Hitler. I live in a democracy that has had single-party rule for all but two short periods in its postwar history.
1/2
@benroyce @roblosricos @Npars01
The problem with the PRC is succession. Who comes next? And how is that decided? The history of the PRC shows that it is a dangerous and unreliable process. Looking at the history of the G7 over the same period suggests that democracy, as it exists, is also a dangerous and unreliable process.
There are a lot of things that need to be changed in democracy in order to make it more representative, less influenced by big money, and so on. I know that’s something you passionately believe in: involvement in the decision making process by voting at every level. And you are correct.
Even so, if you judge world leaders by a few simple criteria (No wars of aggression; commitment to social projects; commitment to conversion to renewables), some key democracies haven’t produced a leader with the positive qualities of Xi. That is all I am saying. Not that the man, or his system is flawless; but that the leaders of the “free world” are, frequently, less capable of helping the people of their own country and other countries.
Xi is an autocrat. Agreed.
China is a one-party state. Agreed.
Yet, it has brought more into the lives of its citizens, and those of other countries, than most of the postwar leaders of democracies.Surely, that raises questions about the kind of democracy we have.
2/2
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@benroyce @roblosricos @Npars01
The problem with the PRC is succession. Who comes next? And how is that decided? The history of the PRC shows that it is a dangerous and unreliable process. Looking at the history of the G7 over the same period suggests that democracy, as it exists, is also a dangerous and unreliable process.
There are a lot of things that need to be changed in democracy in order to make it more representative, less influenced by big money, and so on. I know that’s something you passionately believe in: involvement in the decision making process by voting at every level. And you are correct.
Even so, if you judge world leaders by a few simple criteria (No wars of aggression; commitment to social projects; commitment to conversion to renewables), some key democracies haven’t produced a leader with the positive qualities of Xi. That is all I am saying. Not that the man, or his system is flawless; but that the leaders of the “free world” are, frequently, less capable of helping the people of their own country and other countries.
Xi is an autocrat. Agreed.
China is a one-party state. Agreed.
Yet, it has brought more into the lives of its citizens, and those of other countries, than most of the postwar leaders of democracies.Surely, that raises questions about the kind of democracy we have.
2/2
@Tattered @roblosricos @Npars01
yes china delivered those things
with capitalism. combined with no human rights. totalitarian capitalism
and so i look at your bio and i am struck at the contrast. between someone who proclaims rights, and yet is so eager to betray rights. and i wonder. is it a troll? do you lack the capacity to understand your profound hypocrisy?
i sniffed you out as a tankie from the get go. i just had to confirm it. and you did
my friend:
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@Tattered @roblosricos @Npars01
yes china delivered those things
with capitalism. combined with no human rights. totalitarian capitalism
and so i look at your bio and i am struck at the contrast. between someone who proclaims rights, and yet is so eager to betray rights. and i wonder. is it a troll? do you lack the capacity to understand your profound hypocrisy?
i sniffed you out as a tankie from the get go. i just had to confirm it. and you did
my friend:
@Tattered @roblosricos @Npars01
there is no such thing as being on the left, and championing authoritarianism. they are completely incompatible positions. a tankie is merely a fascist at some intermediate ideological evolutionary state. with MAGA at least they are honest about their vile bigotry. tankies? they want the same as MAGA, but don't know, or don't care
my honest feelings about you i have to censor or i will be banned
you are not on the left, and you are in some ways worse than MAGA
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@Tattered @roblosricos @Npars01
there is no such thing as being on the left, and championing authoritarianism. they are completely incompatible positions. a tankie is merely a fascist at some intermediate ideological evolutionary state. with MAGA at least they are honest about their vile bigotry. tankies? they want the same as MAGA, but don't know, or don't care
my honest feelings about you i have to censor or i will be banned
you are not on the left, and you are in some ways worse than MAGA
@Tattered @roblosricos @Npars01
i unfollowed you, i forced you to unfollow me. do not speak to me ever again, you rotten delusional piece of shit
you are not of the left. not that you fucking tankies will ever stop lying to yourselves about that
fucking pathetic self-deluding morons. good lord are tankies worse than MAGA: MAGA is at least honest about its malice. tankies like you? the rank hypocrisy in such sweet words behind which is nothing but vile rights destroying fascist intent
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@Tattered @roblosricos @Npars01
i unfollowed you, i forced you to unfollow me. do not speak to me ever again, you rotten delusional piece of shit
you are not of the left. not that you fucking tankies will ever stop lying to yourselves about that
fucking pathetic self-deluding morons. good lord are tankies worse than MAGA: MAGA is at least honest about its malice. tankies like you? the rank hypocrisy in such sweet words behind which is nothing but vile rights destroying fascist intent
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@Tattered @roblosricos @Npars01
trip and fall on your front steps and wind up in the hospital, you tankie piece of shit. you are not of the left. you are worse than MAGA. and the biggest joke is you tankies don't even know it, as you work hard for fascism
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@mike805 @roblosricos @Npars01 @benroyce
There are a few asterisks. Uruguay's peak demand is below 2GW. They've about 1.5GW of hydro capacity. They've added some 1.6GW of biomass capacity which they use to generate about .3GW baseline – this in itself brings extra questions.
And about 1.5GW of wind capacity which they use to supplement hydro.During peaks they still use oil power, like right at this moment.
In the region there's for example Paraguay that uses virtually pure hydro.
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@benroyce @roblosricos @Npars01 There are as many problems with democracy, as far as I can see.
No British Prime Minister has supported broad socialist policies since Wilson.
Democracies have been responsible for far more wars of aggression in my lifetime than autocracies.
European democracies are tending toward fascism, on a sliding scale from Orban to Macron deliberately obstructing the public choice of a socialist prime minister.
If we compare Xi with Obama, one of these leaders was engaged in overseas wars of aggression, in which he oversaw the use of drone warfare, with resultant civilian casualties. One of these leaders has also raised millions of his citizens out of abject poverty.
Democracy as an ideal is better than authoritarianism as an ideal. However, a number of fascist dictators have been installed by the democratic process, including Hitler. I live in a democracy that has had single-party rule for all but two short periods in its postwar history.
1/2
@Tattered@social.vivaldi.net @Npars01@mstdn.social @benroyce@mastodon.social @roblosricos@mastodon.social
No British Prime Minister has supported broad socialist policies since Wilson.
The UK has always tended toward repressive governance. It only began to lurch leftwards in two spurts:
The first after WW1 with changes to voting eligibility - the majority of soldiers heading to France and 0% of women had the vote.
While the welfare state didn't emerge until after WW2.
Both advancements were concessions to head off discontent caused by the enormous tolls of both wars.
During the Wilson government the British army spontaneously decided to carry out "exercises" at Heathrow airport, setting up checkpoints without informing parliament, publicly indicating a willingness to act without parliament's approval. Meanwhile in private Andrew's uncle, Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma, applied pressure insisting the Queen let him lead a coup against the Wilson government.
When the coup didn't materialise a "rogue" group of British army black-ops situated in Northern Ireland commenced a smear campaign against Wilson in the press in mainland Britain. Mountbatten spent a lot of time in Northern Ireland (itself a whole topic with his name seemingly inseparable from that of Kincora Boys Home).
Post Wilson, we could also get into McWhirter coming up with the ideology that came to be known as Thatcherism and spoon feeding it to a rising star of the Tories, and the fact Thatcher opted to squander North Sea oil on a series of showcase policies which included those famous Victorian values of targeting leftism and access to education for the less wealthy. -
"Zelensky says allies asked him to scale back attacks on Russian energy"
Zelensky says allies asked him to scale back attacks on Russian energy
Ukraine's president says partners asked if the attacks could be "reduced" as prices soar due to the Iran war.
(www.bbc.com)
Yeah, fuck that
Fuck any country in Europe still stuck on #oil and #gas
Fuck bigot Americans in giant low fuel economy pickup trucks whining
Fuck you India, Fuck you China
Fuck you all
All countries:
Get the fuck off oil and gas. Period. End of story
Addressing the #climatecrisis and defunding vile regimes is job #1
@benroyce damn right, burn em to the ground! Could not believe trump regime ordered construction of wind farms shut down and even paid one developer $1B of our tax money to stop construction!
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"Zelensky says allies asked him to scale back attacks on Russian energy"
Zelensky says allies asked him to scale back attacks on Russian energy
Ukraine's president says partners asked if the attacks could be "reduced" as prices soar due to the Iran war.
(www.bbc.com)
Yeah, fuck that
Fuck any country in Europe still stuck on #oil and #gas
Fuck bigot Americans in giant low fuel economy pickup trucks whining
Fuck you India, Fuck you China
Fuck you all
All countries:
Get the fuck off oil and gas. Period. End of story
Addressing the #climatecrisis and defunding vile regimes is job #1
@benroyce lol
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i know right? russia is a fucking joke
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@Tattered @roblosricos @Npars01
yes china delivered those things
with capitalism. combined with no human rights. totalitarian capitalism
and so i look at your bio and i am struck at the contrast. between someone who proclaims rights, and yet is so eager to betray rights. and i wonder. is it a troll? do you lack the capacity to understand your profound hypocrisy?
i sniffed you out as a tankie from the get go. i just had to confirm it. and you did
my friend:
@benroyce@mastodon.social @Npars01@mstdn.social @Tattered@social.vivaldi.net @roblosricos@mastodon.social I was ... "wait what" so looked to see what was going on with the thread above this, and man... I don't have the time to read, but man... Ah well. I guess I'll find out after this what my experience is. Thanks for giving me a hint, that became much more than a hint...
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@benroyce@mastodon.social @Npars01@mstdn.social @Tattered@social.vivaldi.net @roblosricos@mastodon.social I was ... "wait what" so looked to see what was going on with the thread above this, and man... I don't have the time to read, but man... Ah well. I guess I'll find out after this what my experience is. Thanks for giving me a hint, that became much more than a hint...
@JigmeDatse @Npars01 @Tattered @roblosricos
Fucking tankies
Working hard for fascism
Pretending they are on the left
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@JigmeDatse @Npars01 @Tattered @roblosricos
Fucking tankies
Working hard for fascism
Pretending they are on the left
@benroyce@mastodon.social @Npars01@mstdn.social @Tattered@social.vivaldi.net @roblosricos@mastodon.social I'll admit, that I sort of felt that you could combine progressivism, and authoritarianism, until I sat down and thought about it ... in part through discussion with Soviet Communists. (and a Chinese Communist, who didn't participate that well). I still go, "why can't we just make them think better..." from time to time. Just you know keep those thoughts largely private (like in person with friends/family sometimes), because while I have them, and sometimes feel the need to express them. Most of that is because if I don't. I don't get that, "Oh right, that just doesn't work does it..."
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@benroyce@mastodon.social @Npars01@mstdn.social @Tattered@social.vivaldi.net @roblosricos@mastodon.social I'll admit, that I sort of felt that you could combine progressivism, and authoritarianism, until I sat down and thought about it ... in part through discussion with Soviet Communists. (and a Chinese Communist, who didn't participate that well). I still go, "why can't we just make them think better..." from time to time. Just you know keep those thoughts largely private (like in person with friends/family sometimes), because while I have them, and sometimes feel the need to express them. Most of that is because if I don't. I don't get that, "Oh right, that just doesn't work does it..."
@JigmeDatse @Npars01 @Tattered @roblosricos
concentration of power in the hands of the few inevitably results in destruction of rights
for someone to point at china, which is totalitarian capitalism, as a triumph of socialism, is peak delusional or a straight hard sociopathic lie
so anyone putting their faith in authoritarian control for the people's rights is a moron of the highest order, or an icy liar working hard against people's rights
the idea is to cure sick democracy. not abandon it
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@JigmeDatse @Npars01 @Tattered @roblosricos
concentration of power in the hands of the few inevitably results in destruction of rights
for someone to point at china, which is totalitarian capitalism, as a triumph of socialism, is peak delusional or a straight hard sociopathic lie
so anyone putting their faith in authoritarian control for the people's rights is a moron of the highest order, or an icy liar working hard against people's rights
the idea is to cure sick democracy. not abandon it
@benroyce@mastodon.social @Npars01@mstdn.social @Tattered@social.vivaldi.net @roblosricos@mastodon.social Ah, these folk I was talking to, very much we ended up agreeing that what they saw as "good" and what we could agree was the reality, were not the same thing. This was probably 15-20 years ago, and even then things both in China and Russia were not anything like the promise (hm, nor were they 100 years ago from what I can tell).
