Link via @HRCH - The Guardian reports on T&E’s research about rail booking problems https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2026/apr/21/almost-half-of-eus-busiest-flight-routes-are-hard-or-impossible-to-book-on-trains-report
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@bovine3dom @cycling_on_rails @jon @stefanlindbohm The problem with that is that it makes the thirty euro ticket go away, not the 120 euro ticket.
@partim i dunno if i believe that
arbitrageurs would resell them for some mark-up but maybe like €40
i don't think anyone other than the SNCF would throw a tantrum and refuse to sell cheap tickets. and i am kind of ok with the SNCF throwing tantrums because it helps to erode public support for them
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@partim @cycling_on_rails @jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm But isn’t that a good thing? Perhaps an absurd comparison: it would be like Nutella going to Aldi and Lidl and forcing both to sell the same product (in our case, the same train) at the same price.
@markusr i think it's more like if Nutella stamped the jars with LIDL and ALDI and then called armed police if they ever caught a different shop selling a jar with the wrong stamp on
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@markusr i think it's more like if Nutella stamped the jars with LIDL and ALDI and then called armed police if they ever caught a different shop selling a jar with the wrong stamp on
@bovine3dom But that’s a different problem. But a problem, agreed. @partim @cycling_on_rails @jon @stefanlindbohm
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@cycling_on_rails @jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm Looks like ÖBB doesn’t sell Sparschiene tickets on most Railjets from Münich while DB happily sells Sparpreise.
I guess that happens if everyone does their own discount pricing independently.
(A similar thing can happen with codeshare flights, so this isn’t unique to rail.)
@partim That specific route is super confusing. I’ve also seen the opposite, and sometimes 2nd class gets the non-flex on one operator but not the other, and 1st class is the opposite on the same departure. The yield management on that train is bananas.
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@jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm As for Spain, I'm not sure there's more than correlation between prices, market share and incumbent status.
Trainline runs gigantic ads in the Barcelona waiting area. So maybe there's consumer choice here (e.g. better comfort and/or luggage space in AVE).
Plus market share is driven by offer (how many trains each operator runs). And price by offer as well (related to comfort level).
Lastly, are these figures even for Barcelona-Madrid, or Spain-wide?
@cycling_on_rails
Just Madrid-Barcelona I think. The total 14.6m pax agrees with the CNMC annual report 2024 (for the corridor including intermediate trips).One thing that stands out is that the figure for places offered is just slightly above passengers (unlike other corridors where there was more of a gap). I think that fits with your point - it's not clear there was any meaningful capacity for passengers to make different choices.
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@cycling_on_rails
Just Madrid-Barcelona I think. The total 14.6m pax agrees with the CNMC annual report 2024 (for the corridor including intermediate trips).One thing that stands out is that the figure for places offered is just slightly above passengers (unlike other corridors where there was more of a gap). I think that fits with your point - it's not clear there was any meaningful capacity for passengers to make different choices.
@cycling_on_rails
As you say, Trainline advertises widely in Spain (well beyond Barcelona). It would be interesting to know what their market share is, if anyone knows, especially given the poor reputation of the incumbent's website and apps.Personally I have no expectation that Renfe would tell me about Iryo trains, any more than I expect Aer Lingus to tell me about Ryanair.
I don't think split ticketing is really a thing in Spain, but I may be wrong.
@jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm -
@cycling_on_rails
As you say, Trainline advertises widely in Spain (well beyond Barcelona). It would be interesting to know what their market share is, if anyone knows, especially given the poor reputation of the incumbent's website and apps.Personally I have no expectation that Renfe would tell me about Iryo trains, any more than I expect Aer Lingus to tell me about Ryanair.
I don't think split ticketing is really a thing in Spain, but I may be wrong.
@jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm@alan @jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm Yeah last time I traveled Barcelona-Malaga (and back), I compared with Trainline and in the end the direct AVE train was sensibly cheaper (and of course faster + passenger rights) than any splitting in Madrid. Something like 50-60€ vs. twice 40-50€.
Only drawback was that it was early (for Spain) i.e. departing between 8am and 9am, meaning hotels weren't necessarily offering breakfast in time. Maybe that explains the price?
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@alan @jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm Yeah last time I traveled Barcelona-Malaga (and back), I compared with Trainline and in the end the direct AVE train was sensibly cheaper (and of course faster + passenger rights) than any splitting in Madrid. Something like 50-60€ vs. twice 40-50€.
Only drawback was that it was early (for Spain) i.e. departing between 8am and 9am, meaning hotels weren't necessarily offering breakfast in time. Maybe that explains the price?
@cycling_on_rails One further question here: what ARE these 30 most flown routes that T&E is using? I cannot find the list - it is not in the report. And I can find no link. Am I being dim? @alan @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm
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@cycling_on_rails One further question here: what ARE these 30 most flown routes that T&E is using? I cannot find the list - it is not in the report. And I can find no link. Am I being dim? @alan @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm
@jon they bought it from OAG which is probably why they aren't allowed to tell you
@cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
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@jon they bought it from OAG which is probably why they aren't allowed to tell you
@cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
@bovine3dom But then how can I verify if they are telling the truth? 🤨 @cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
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@bovine3dom But then how can I verify if they are telling the truth? 🤨 @cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
@jon I was confused by the same. I guess most of them are decryptable from the lines on their maps. Even without internal ranking that is usable, but the full list would be nice.
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@bovine3dom But then how can I verify if they are telling the truth? 🤨 @cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
@jon you can't
i have some sympathy for them because the data was probably quite expensive, there weren't any great alternatives, and negotiating being allowed to release the data probably would have cost them a lot more
you might be able to guess from open source data on the number of flights a day but i suspect aggregating that data was beyond T&E's skillset
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@jon you can't
i have some sympathy for them because the data was probably quite expensive, there weren't any great alternatives, and negotiating being allowed to release the data probably would have cost them a lot more
you might be able to guess from open source data on the number of flights a day but i suspect aggregating that data was beyond T&E's skillset
@bovine3dom maybe. Or maybe they simply thought no one would ask? And I don't need the plane passenger numbers, just the 30 city pairs. @cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
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@bovine3dom maybe. Or maybe they simply thought no one would ask? And I don't need the plane passenger numbers, just the 30 city pairs. @cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
Why would they need to buy that data? Isn't it just here: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/transport/database
`avia_par` contains what you would need, no? It seems to only go up to 2024, but surely that is good enough.
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@q Let's start with a question though: what do rail firms think of this? And is legislation forcing its use going to be in the forthcoming SDBTR (or, I presume, MDMS, or something else? @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm @HRCH
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Why would they need to buy that data? Isn't it just here: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/transport/database
`avia_par` contains what you would need, no? It seems to only go up to 2024, but surely that is good enough.
…also, this might be the sign that I should learn to use R’s eurostat package.
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@q This is great! I’m not the right person to get into how exactly the barcode is constructed, but we are very interested in what is functionally possible. Is there a functional overview that we can read and give potential feedback on?
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@q This is great! I’m not the right person to get into how exactly the barcode is constructed, but we are very interested in what is functionally possible. Is there a functional overview that we can read and give potential feedback on?
@stefanlindbohm i guess the coolest thing for me as a user would be to be able to bundle arbitrary tickets together using something like Zügli into a single ticket, and have retailers use the same functionality to bundle tickets
reading the draft it seems to say that only one of the sub documents should be a ticket, with the legs just encoded as a kind of already trusted bit of the ticket?
afaik SBB has the best bundling system but i don't know where the trust happens for them
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@q This comes back to a kind of bundler idea I was musing about with @stefanlindbohm but in there will be a business liability component too. Given SDBTR should now be out on 13 May, how this plays with the signing issue you raise here, Q, is going to be *very interesting*. @bovine3dom
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@q that seems very messy to me, fundamentally lots of these railways hate each other and they're supposed to trust each other to sign their tickets?
is there a very good reason for it? what are the limitations of "the barcode is a dumb container" approach?
