Link via @HRCH - The Guardian reports on T&E’s research about rail booking problems https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2026/apr/21/almost-half-of-eus-busiest-flight-routes-are-hard-or-impossible-to-book-on-trains-report
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@stefanlindbohm @bovine3dom @jon @HRCH Yeah, in other words: does the value added justify the fee added? If you can offer a smooth route planner + end-to-end ticket booking in one payment (don't care if it counts as one "transaction" in legal verbiage) for a journey with 3+ operators that's already raising the bar.
And I think there'd be value in adding some flexibility on top (letting the user tweak or even build the schedule like Interrail app) but understand that's extra complexity for now.
@cycling_on_rails Exactly this.
And once we have the ”basics” (not really basic) of cross-border trips working, I’m super excited to keep adding features for more power user type scenarios. Like you say, if you know you want to take certain connections, or combine tickets a certain way that is different from what we propose. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves
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@stefanlindbohm i think i disagree with you pretty strongly here
finding the optimum route/price combination is quite a hard computer science problem, i don't think it's a bug that the SNCF can't give you that, they're quite simply institutionally too bad at computers. probably because they can't pay talent enough or give them enough political space to experiment
they went on the record recently saying that they thought selling tickets was technically difficult!
@bovine3dom Ok that’s a fair enough point.
I think my main resistance is on the part where you chuck over an unexpected number of tickets to the traveler who needs to deal with what to show where, and added complexity in disruption communication etc.
Tariff data is already in the MMTIS legislation from March, so maybe this could alternatively be solved by also obliging operators to allow a retailer to specify how to combine tariffs on a single ticket issued?
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@bovine3dom Ok that’s a fair enough point.
I think my main resistance is on the part where you chuck over an unexpected number of tickets to the traveler who needs to deal with what to show where, and added complexity in disruption communication etc.
Tariff data is already in the MMTIS legislation from March, so maybe this could alternatively be solved by also obliging operators to allow a retailer to specify how to combine tariffs on a single ticket issued?
@stefanlindbohm i believe _in theory_ UIC's new ticketing standard allows for multiple tickets embedded within a single QR (sorry) code
@q is our resident expert there
so maybe somewhere the regulation needs to allow retailers to take advantage of that?
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@cycling_on_rails i love when each operator gets their own allocation of seats and sells them separately
if we banned nominative tickets arbitrageurs could fix all this nonsense for us
@bovine3dom @cycling_on_rails @jon @stefanlindbohm The problem with that is that it makes the thirty euro ticket go away, not the 120 euro ticket.
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@stefanlindbohm i believe _in theory_ UIC's new ticketing standard allows for multiple tickets embedded within a single QR (sorry) code
@q is our resident expert there
so maybe somewhere the regulation needs to allow retailers to take advantage of that?
@bovine3dom That would be an acceptable option yep! It would also make all trips a lot nicer for anything we sell, not only single-operator splits.
It wouldn’t necessarily solve the issue of making disruption claims easier, but maybe that can be coordinated by the retailer (even though the actual claim is nowadays almost always to be handled by the operator).
(I’ve seen that feature technically exists, so presumably only a matter of deployment and access.)
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@cycling_on_rails @jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm Looks like ÖBB doesn’t sell Sparschiene tickets on most Railjets from Münich while DB happily sells Sparpreise.
I guess that happens if everyone does their own discount pricing independently.
(A similar thing can happen with codeshare flights, so this isn’t unique to rail.)
@partim @cycling_on_rails @jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm But isn’t that a good thing? Perhaps an absurd comparison: it would be like Nutella going to Aldi and Lidl and forcing both to sell the same product (in our case, the same train) at the same price.
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@bovine3dom @cycling_on_rails @jon @stefanlindbohm The problem with that is that it makes the thirty euro ticket go away, not the 120 euro ticket.
@partim i dunno if i believe that
arbitrageurs would resell them for some mark-up but maybe like €40
i don't think anyone other than the SNCF would throw a tantrum and refuse to sell cheap tickets. and i am kind of ok with the SNCF throwing tantrums because it helps to erode public support for them
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@partim @cycling_on_rails @jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm But isn’t that a good thing? Perhaps an absurd comparison: it would be like Nutella going to Aldi and Lidl and forcing both to sell the same product (in our case, the same train) at the same price.
@markusr i think it's more like if Nutella stamped the jars with LIDL and ALDI and then called armed police if they ever caught a different shop selling a jar with the wrong stamp on
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@markusr i think it's more like if Nutella stamped the jars with LIDL and ALDI and then called armed police if they ever caught a different shop selling a jar with the wrong stamp on
@bovine3dom But that’s a different problem. But a problem, agreed. @partim @cycling_on_rails @jon @stefanlindbohm
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@cycling_on_rails @jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm Looks like ÖBB doesn’t sell Sparschiene tickets on most Railjets from Münich while DB happily sells Sparpreise.
I guess that happens if everyone does their own discount pricing independently.
(A similar thing can happen with codeshare flights, so this isn’t unique to rail.)
@partim That specific route is super confusing. I’ve also seen the opposite, and sometimes 2nd class gets the non-flex on one operator but not the other, and 1st class is the opposite on the same departure. The yield management on that train is bananas.
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@jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm As for Spain, I'm not sure there's more than correlation between prices, market share and incumbent status.
Trainline runs gigantic ads in the Barcelona waiting area. So maybe there's consumer choice here (e.g. better comfort and/or luggage space in AVE).
Plus market share is driven by offer (how many trains each operator runs). And price by offer as well (related to comfort level).
Lastly, are these figures even for Barcelona-Madrid, or Spain-wide?
@cycling_on_rails
Just Madrid-Barcelona I think. The total 14.6m pax agrees with the CNMC annual report 2024 (for the corridor including intermediate trips).One thing that stands out is that the figure for places offered is just slightly above passengers (unlike other corridors where there was more of a gap). I think that fits with your point - it's not clear there was any meaningful capacity for passengers to make different choices.
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@cycling_on_rails
Just Madrid-Barcelona I think. The total 14.6m pax agrees with the CNMC annual report 2024 (for the corridor including intermediate trips).One thing that stands out is that the figure for places offered is just slightly above passengers (unlike other corridors where there was more of a gap). I think that fits with your point - it's not clear there was any meaningful capacity for passengers to make different choices.
@cycling_on_rails
As you say, Trainline advertises widely in Spain (well beyond Barcelona). It would be interesting to know what their market share is, if anyone knows, especially given the poor reputation of the incumbent's website and apps.Personally I have no expectation that Renfe would tell me about Iryo trains, any more than I expect Aer Lingus to tell me about Ryanair.
I don't think split ticketing is really a thing in Spain, but I may be wrong.
@jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm -
@cycling_on_rails
As you say, Trainline advertises widely in Spain (well beyond Barcelona). It would be interesting to know what their market share is, if anyone knows, especially given the poor reputation of the incumbent's website and apps.Personally I have no expectation that Renfe would tell me about Iryo trains, any more than I expect Aer Lingus to tell me about Ryanair.
I don't think split ticketing is really a thing in Spain, but I may be wrong.
@jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm@alan @jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm Yeah last time I traveled Barcelona-Malaga (and back), I compared with Trainline and in the end the direct AVE train was sensibly cheaper (and of course faster + passenger rights) than any splitting in Madrid. Something like 50-60€ vs. twice 40-50€.
Only drawback was that it was early (for Spain) i.e. departing between 8am and 9am, meaning hotels weren't necessarily offering breakfast in time. Maybe that explains the price?
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@alan @jon @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm Yeah last time I traveled Barcelona-Malaga (and back), I compared with Trainline and in the end the direct AVE train was sensibly cheaper (and of course faster + passenger rights) than any splitting in Madrid. Something like 50-60€ vs. twice 40-50€.
Only drawback was that it was early (for Spain) i.e. departing between 8am and 9am, meaning hotels weren't necessarily offering breakfast in time. Maybe that explains the price?
@cycling_on_rails One further question here: what ARE these 30 most flown routes that T&E is using? I cannot find the list - it is not in the report. And I can find no link. Am I being dim? @alan @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm
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@cycling_on_rails One further question here: what ARE these 30 most flown routes that T&E is using? I cannot find the list - it is not in the report. And I can find no link. Am I being dim? @alan @bovine3dom @stefanlindbohm
@jon they bought it from OAG which is probably why they aren't allowed to tell you
@cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
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@jon they bought it from OAG which is probably why they aren't allowed to tell you
@cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
@bovine3dom But then how can I verify if they are telling the truth? 🤨 @cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
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@bovine3dom But then how can I verify if they are telling the truth? 🤨 @cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
@jon I was confused by the same. I guess most of them are decryptable from the lines on their maps. Even without internal ranking that is usable, but the full list would be nice.
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@bovine3dom But then how can I verify if they are telling the truth? 🤨 @cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
@jon you can't
i have some sympathy for them because the data was probably quite expensive, there weren't any great alternatives, and negotiating being allowed to release the data probably would have cost them a lot more
you might be able to guess from open source data on the number of flights a day but i suspect aggregating that data was beyond T&E's skillset
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@jon you can't
i have some sympathy for them because the data was probably quite expensive, there weren't any great alternatives, and negotiating being allowed to release the data probably would have cost them a lot more
you might be able to guess from open source data on the number of flights a day but i suspect aggregating that data was beyond T&E's skillset
@bovine3dom maybe. Or maybe they simply thought no one would ask? And I don't need the plane passenger numbers, just the 30 city pairs. @cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
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@bovine3dom maybe. Or maybe they simply thought no one would ask? And I don't need the plane passenger numbers, just the 30 city pairs. @cycling_on_rails @alan @stefanlindbohm
Why would they need to buy that data? Isn't it just here: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/transport/database
`avia_par` contains what you would need, no? It seems to only go up to 2024, but surely that is good enough.
