We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
-
@tinker my kid's other mom asks chat gpt mental health questions apparently frequently, sometimes about our child. On the fediverse and in my lefty news podcasts I hear that people hate AI, but most people I know seem to be leaning on it for a lot. It's pretty concerning.
Yes, my husband is an intelligent man but I see him taking AI summaries as verbatim and that worries me.
-
@tinker @darthnull There's a place where you can get web search with all those things, without AI (unless you want it), and feels like the google search of the aughts and early '10s.
No ads
No telemetry
No cluttered junk above the first real search resultcc @kagihq
@zcutlip @tinker @darthnull @kagihq Sure „On September 4, 2024, Kagi Assistant was announced.[17] The Assistant uses generative artificial intelligence models from third party AI providers“
-
The enshittification of google search has fossil fuel funding.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-06/saudis-plan-100-billion-ai-powerhouse-to-rival-uae-s-tech-hubEach crappy search result triggers more attempts to find what you need with more prompts & more refined search parameters
Each query attempt is being routed to behemoths like this one
https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/kevin-o-learys-9-gw-utah-data-center-campus-approvedThat's by design. To waste energy, with a side of state surveillance & chokepoint capitalism
Efficient search conserves energy
1/
-
We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
we haven't invented a strong enough word to describe my feelings when a search engine searches for what it thinks I meant instead of doing what I told it to do
-
@AVincentInSpace @Npars01 @krypt3ia @tinker
To expand on that: as documented by internal Google emails, in a iively discussion prior to rolling back efficient search.
-
We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker so in less than one generation, IT itself will be gone ...
-
We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker@infosec.exchange
Other than above-average intelligence, I don't consider myself "neurodivergent" (and I definitely haven't been diagnosed ASD or any of the ADHD derivatives. That said, I learned to program at an early age — and many decades ago — which created an operator-oriented mind-set. What I liked about the search of a decade ago was that it functioned analogously to searches in other contexts (LDAP, SQL, JMSE, etc.).
Now? Search is all "squishy". And the only thing that acts as a counter to that "squishiness" is that inputs are stateful: i can iteratively-refine a search to get the results I need.
If you're planning to use advertising to offset the cost of offering an AI-based search, that (all but) forced iterated-request pattern gives you many more opportunities to inject advertising. As a service-operator, you just have to hope that your per-query advertising-revenue is greater than the token-cost of a given iteration. -
We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker My favourite notion now is to reject the negative infused neurodivergent and neurotypical labels. I propose :
neurodiverse or neurocreative
and
neurosimple or neuroinert
Anything seen as in the minority is so often couched in negative terms. Often as it is a threat to the rest.
I often find 'normal' people severely lacking in curiosity and creativity and passion.
-
We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker I miss Boolean web search so much…
-
We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker Are you sure that this is an accurate account of history? I think a big reason we didn't see widespread "fuzzy" search earlier is because we just didn't know how to make it work well. Simple keyword search is much easier to implement, especially at scale. And even then you had and still have many aspects that are still far from precise and very much heuristic, like the ranking of search results. Of course a few idealized problems admit "precise" algorithms (like PageRank) but that's it?
-
We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
If you wanted to have an idea of just how absurd vibecoding is @jonny ’s epic thread, where he reviewed Claude source is more than enough.
I encourage you, however, to reconsider your presumption that neurotypical people automatically love that bullshit. It is very typical to assume anecdotal experience as globally relevant.
Nine year-old children now say “it’s AI” to characterize something as a lie. Children have no history where search was reliable.
-
We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker Is it really gone
I don't think there's a law forcing everyone to use AI to pentest
-
We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker am i the only one who is disturbed by the combination of a really good point and heroification of neuro spicy folk?
Neurospicy’s are superior human beings! (Satire)
-
We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker "nuerodivergent [chose] boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc)'
No. We simply had engineers and developers who cared about what engineers and developers care about: logic, accuracy, consistency. They were replaced with people who cosplay at engineering. Skill was replaced with the affectation of skill.
-
We went from precise web search with boolean operators to "natural language models" of AI search.
You can tell nuerodivergent, Autistic, ADHD, AuDHD, etc folks created the early internet...
...and you can tell that neurotypical folks are now leading the current overlays of the internet.
We used to have very precise search mechanisms. Specific words found in web pages with boolean operators (AND, OR, NOT, etc) to filter out the web pages that contained specific words and did not contain other words.
Now, we search for web sites (or don't even search for web sites, yay abstraction layers that separate us from actual raw information) using "natural language" to try and coax out info.
Have you ever been frustrated when you use very precise and direct language to communicate a specific idea with someone who then takes those specific words and adds obscure meaning and connotations and personal fears and bias to what you said... thus completely misunderstanding you... only to then try and clarify what you said with more precise language only to have that further degrade the conversation?!
Yeah. That's the internet with AI "search" now.
They took something that worked precisely and directly and muddied it.
We've introduced the "double-empathy problem" to web search.
I'm noticing that everyone in my circles, family, and especially work that are nuerotypical LOVE LOVE LOVE the new AI search mechanisms. They'll tell me exactly what the answer they received was - regardless of whether it's right or has multiple possible and conflicting answers. They just repeat what the AI said like it was the Gospel Truth.
And they love talking to it like it was a "real person."
It certainly takes my search parameters and adds its own interpretation to which I have to clarify and correct which is then misinterpreted further...
I haven't tried vibe coding, but I can only imagine the horror.
Can you imagine vibe pentesting with Claude / Mythos?!?!?!
You know how neurodivergent folks gravitated towards IT because it was precise?
Yeah, that's gone now.
@tinker i started to ask the search engine the way the most stupid person i can imagine would ask.
That helps sometimes and always fills me with a deep semse of loss and sadness. -
R relay@relay.mycrowd.ca shared this topic
