@randahl
People have forgotten how to think, or perhaps never knew how to think.

@randahl @attoparsec I don’t think this is a very good take. Primarily because the people making that argument are being disingenuous to start with, so pointing out the contradiction is a waste of energy and plays into their rhetorical tactics, but also because, at least in the US, their obvious reply is “that’s why we need to drill more domestically”.

@noondlyt @randahl
Interesting.
When wind does not blow, you still have solar power.
When sun is not shining you still have wind power.
Only when there is no sun and no wind, then you have no power.
If the strait of Hormuz is closed, you have no power.
If the refineries are on fire you have no power.
If Hormuz is closed and refineries are on fire you have even less power.

@luciedigitalni @Lats @randahl

Not if they have a battery inside. Just any old outlet will do. You have outdated information.

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@chris @randahl and if #trump controls #StraitOfHormuz you have to pay for energy whatever he deserves.

@ohir @randahl Solar + wind isn’t the answer in Germany or Netherlands according to simple analysis of real-time datasets
https://energyasicit.ca/WindModel/

@randahl
Although wind cannot be stopped by men and it is always blowing somewhere.

@Globob @randahl

Pb-PbSO₄ batteries 80Wh/dm3, 8kWh/m3, lead: 7kg/dm3, 7t/m3

The suburban mall parking lot of 30x50m stuffed 1.5m under surface with 1m high plates gives 12MWh storage, 10MWh safe.

Highway verge 4m wide with same 1m high plates under give 32MWh per km. You can store 3TWh of above chart under some 100km of your nearest Autobahn unused otherwise grassy verge. If you'd put your battery under sides you could have 3TWh spread over some 50km.

For 3TWh you would need 2.800.000t of lead. Considering current data [1] it would be 15-20 years of the WASTE tailings processing. I.e. getting all that lead off the landfills where it goes now. If copper ore processing would care more about lead output, I think (did not digged enough), we could do such storage in 10 years.

Once again: Pb-PbSO₄ batteries are perpetual. They can last millenia. They excel at short cycles unlike lithium/sodium technology. There is a two magnitudes less toxic waste of their production than with lithium technology. You can regenerate them in-situ in fully automated way (as this is almost pure mechanical process).

And all that lead once sealed in the battery plate/case poses no toxic threat to the environment (unlike the tailings being on the landfill).

[1] https://doi.org/10.1016/j.scitotenv.2023.162038

@Globob @randahl
> $6b/GW
We are not talking the car batteries.
3TW (2.800.000t) is now ~6bn but for 3TWh. Such storage (along the highway) would be in $10bn range. Comparable to mid-sized SMR nuclear power plant cost.

Numbers provided are for what was on the chart, that single 24h discharge.

@Globob @randahl
> green steel
Yes, heavy industry using solar energy is a way to both savings and having environment recuperate a bit. Just we need to get electricity storage awareness higher.

The lead-acid storage is cheapest and cleanest of all. The only "disadvantage" it has that it is not patentable. Hence the long term "lobbying" against. I mean bribery and blackmail that started in mid seventies of the 20th century.

@ohir @randahl It is worth emphasizing that green steel can use 100% of the solar and wind electrons with zero battery storage. The concept of a virtual wire reduces the grid changes required to almost zero also. Furthermore if one eliminates gas on the grid by overbuilding baseload nuclear the CO2 savings can be amplified by 10 fold. It just requires a mindset change with very little technological change.
https://energyasicit.ca/VirtualWire/

@gunstick @noondlyt @randahl I would like to suggest one correction: When there is no sun and no wind, you have batteries.

@chrisp @randahl So sad that we even have to consider this.

@Globob @randahl
>...(replying to all three)
We, I specifically, do not talk car batteries. The less the crippled with planned obsolescence additives ones. Data in your counter "arguments" came from such assesments. Try to search real industrial/army data. Not all are buried to the cellars. Not all were burnt. Submarine batteries data are easiest to find.

Direct Industry use of solar energy needs batteries too. Usually Vanadium based ones, because China has it and those batteries have good characteristics as buffers. And direct Industry use is orthogonal to the diffused cheap storage. The ammount of solar energy we can harvest is and always will be magnitudes over our storage capacity. What I am doing is to make others aware about what is possible but got "lobbied" out. Green steel, green concrete, green any other energy intensive industry just adds up to the green kitchen in your home.

@randahl @prowindjetzt

@Globob @randahl
> recommended depth of 50%
Car battery recommended. And true, because car battery plates endure many forces storage batteries do not. Those under the ground will move likely at earthquake time. The numbers I gave account for 80% discharge cycle. In such batteries plate frames are reinforced (thats why 80Wh/dm³ came here, instead of 115Wh/dm³ of contemporary car battery).

@Globob @randahl
> self discharge rate of ~5%/month
If we lost sun for a month the self discharge rate would be ... :))