Those who keep complaining that wind turbines do not work when the winds are not blowing, just realized that oil does not work when the Hormuz Strait is not open.
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Those who keep complaining that wind turbines do not work when the winds are not blowing, just realized that oil does not work when the Hormuz Strait is not open.
@randahl good one
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Those who keep complaining that wind turbines do not work when the winds are not blowing, just realized that oil does not work when the Hormuz Strait is not open.
@randahl And people who object to wealth taxes still want their investment properties protecting from cruise missiles.
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@GhostOnTheHalfShell @randahl yes. “Non energy use” of oil is about 15% of the total 100 million barrels a day. It’s 12% of NG use. But the reason it is a global tool of blackmail and war is the other 85% which can be replaced by renewables and different ways of doing things.
Let’s stay focused on the main problem here. Which is the burning of fossil fuels.
If you don’t have feed stocks, eg sulfur or methane, you don’t have the global economy.
alternatives cost a lot more. After 20 or so iterations, 90% recycling you’re down to 10% of that resource.
We burn fossil fuels in order to destroy the planet. Swapping to renewables is still destroying the planet.
The different way of doing things is to re-localize economies and stop destroying the planet with a global economy
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If you don’t have feed stocks, eg sulfur or methane, you don’t have the global economy.
alternatives cost a lot more. After 20 or so iterations, 90% recycling you’re down to 10% of that resource.
We burn fossil fuels in order to destroy the planet. Swapping to renewables is still destroying the planet.
The different way of doing things is to re-localize economies and stop destroying the planet with a global economy
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Those who keep complaining that wind turbines do not work when the winds are not blowing, just realized that oil does not work when the Hormuz Strait is not open.
@randahl
People have forgotten how to think, or perhaps never knew how to think. -
Those who keep complaining that wind turbines do not work when the winds are not blowing, just realized that oil does not work when the Hormuz Strait is not open.
@randahl @attoparsec I don’t think this is a very good take. Primarily because the people making that argument are being disingenuous to start with, so pointing out the contradiction is a waste of energy and plays into their rhetorical tactics, but also because, at least in the US, their obvious reply is “that’s why we need to drill more domestically”.
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Or the oil refineries and fields are on fire or destroyed
@noondlyt @randahl
Interesting.
When wind does not blow, you still have solar power.
When sun is not shining you still have wind power.
Only when there is no sun and no wind, then you have no power.
If the strait of Hormuz is closed, you have no power.
If the refineries are on fire you have no power.
If Hormuz is closed and refineries are on fire you have even less power.
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@luciedigitalni @Lats @randahl
Not if they have a battery inside. Just any old outlet will do. You have outdated information.
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@randahl I saw someone yesterday say that solar and wind are just as “vulnerable” because so much of it is also shipped through the narrow straits of Malacca(?)…. Ignoring, or ignorant, of the fact that because the energy for renewables actually comes from the sun, only new or replacement solar/wind capacity would potentially be disrupted by this kind of shut down….
The sun would still shine and the wind would still blow, the rivers, magma, and tides would still flow, all no matter how many wars some idiot starts.
@chris @randahl and if #trump controls #StraitOfHormuz you have to pay for energy whatever he deserves.
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@Globob @randahl
> that wind turbines are not a substituteAdd to this solar and in tandem they are. You can even fill up a tank of the combustion engine car with them. [1][2][3].
In Europe we have enough materials dumped to landfills as waste to build a storage facility with a capacity of over 1 TWh storage. Perpetual batteries technology that is (was) with us for more than 100 years. Was because they unearthed research from early forties of the past century that hinted them how to cripplle those batteries using Ca, Sn, and Al additives since 1975 or so (when the first oil prices peak endangered their bottom).
[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7970114/ (open) CO₂ -> CH₄
[2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-023-01314-8 (paywalled) CO₂ -> C₃H₈
[3] https://deltaliquidenergy.com/turning-the-tide-on-co2-emissions-the-path-to-renewable-propane/ [abstract of above]@ohir @randahl Solar + wind isn’t the answer in Germany or Netherlands according to simple analysis of real-time datasets
https://energyasicit.ca/WindModel/
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Those who keep complaining that wind turbines do not work when the winds are not blowing, just realized that oil does not work when the Hormuz Strait is not open.
@randahl
Although wind cannot be stopped by men and it is always blowing somewhere. -
@ohir @randahl Solar + wind isn’t the answer in Germany or Netherlands according to simple analysis of real-time datasets
https://energyasicit.ca/WindModel/Pb-PbSO₄ batteries 80Wh/dm3, 8kWh/m3, lead: 7kg/dm3, 7t/m3
The suburban mall parking lot of 30x50m stuffed 1.5m under surface with 1m high plates gives 12MWh storage, 10MWh safe.
Highway verge 4m wide with same 1m high plates under give 32MWh per km. You can store 3TWh of above chart under some 100km of your nearest Autobahn unused otherwise grassy verge. If you'd put your battery under sides you could have 3TWh spread over some 50km.
For 3TWh you would need 2.800.000t of lead. Considering current data [1] it would be 15-20 years of the WASTE tailings processing. I.e. getting all that lead off the landfills where it goes now. If copper ore processing would care more about lead output, I think (did not digged enough), we could do such storage in 10 years.
Once again: Pb-PbSO₄ batteries are perpetual. They can last millenia. They excel at short cycles unlike lithium/sodium technology. There is a two magnitudes less toxic waste of their production than with lithium technology. You can regenerate them in-situ in fully automated way (as this is almost pure mechanical process).
And all that lead once sealed in the battery plate/case poses no toxic threat to the environment (unlike the tailings being on the landfill).
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@Globob @randahl
> green steel
Yes, heavy industry using solar energy is a way to both savings and having environment recuperate a bit. Just we need to get electricity storage awareness higher.The lead-acid storage is cheapest and cleanest of all. The only "disadvantage" it has that it is not patentable. Hence the long term "lobbying" against. I mean bribery and blackmail that started in mid seventies of the 20th century.
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@Globob @randahl
> green steel
Yes, heavy industry using solar energy is a way to both savings and having environment recuperate a bit. Just we need to get electricity storage awareness higher.The lead-acid storage is cheapest and cleanest of all. The only "disadvantage" it has that it is not patentable. Hence the long term "lobbying" against. I mean bribery and blackmail that started in mid seventies of the 20th century.
@ohir @randahl It is worth emphasizing that green steel can use 100% of the solar and wind electrons with zero battery storage. The concept of a virtual wire reduces the grid changes required to almost zero also. Furthermore if one eliminates gas on the grid by overbuilding baseload nuclear the CO2 savings can be amplified by 10 fold. It just requires a mindset change with very little technological change.
https://energyasicit.ca/VirtualWire/ -
@noondlyt @randahl
Interesting.
When wind does not blow, you still have solar power.
When sun is not shining you still have wind power.
Only when there is no sun and no wind, then you have no power.
If the strait of Hormuz is closed, you have no power.
If the refineries are on fire you have no power.
If Hormuz is closed and refineries are on fire you have even less power. -
@randahl Wind, solar, hydro, batteries, tend to be a bit more spread out and usually provide a bit of redundancy because they are a bit more decentralised. Which is handy if another country starts blowing your stuff up.
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@ohir @randahl It is worth emphasizing that green steel can use 100% of the solar and wind electrons with zero battery storage. The concept of a virtual wire reduces the grid changes required to almost zero also. Furthermore if one eliminates gas on the grid by overbuilding baseload nuclear the CO2 savings can be amplified by 10 fold. It just requires a mindset change with very little technological change.
https://energyasicit.ca/VirtualWire/@Globob @randahl
>...(replying to all three)
We, I specifically, do not talk car batteries. The less the crippled with planned obsolescence additives ones. Data in your counter "arguments" came from such assesments. Try to search real industrial/army data. Not all are buried to the cellars. Not all were burnt. Submarine batteries data are easiest to find.Direct Industry use of solar energy needs batteries too. Usually Vanadium based ones, because China has it and those batteries have good characteristics as buffers. And direct Industry use is orthogonal to the diffused cheap storage. The ammount of solar energy we can harvest is and always will be magnitudes over our storage capacity. What I am doing is to make others aware about what is possible but got "lobbied" out. Green steel, green concrete, green any other energy intensive industry just adds up to the green kitchen in your home.
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Those who keep complaining that wind turbines do not work when the winds are not blowing, just realized that oil does not work when the Hormuz Strait is not open.
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@Globob @randahl
> recommended depth of 50%
Car battery recommended. And true, because car battery plates endure many forces storage batteries do not. Those under the ground will move likely at earthquake time. The numbers I gave account for 80% discharge cycle. In such batteries plate frames are reinforced (thats why 80Wh/dm³ came here, instead of 115Wh/dm³ of contemporary car battery).
