Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
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@scottjenson for the record, we think such generalization is facially absurd
we'd normally have found some polite way to say that, but it turns out reacting as if we're someone else is a fast way to get us angry
@scottjenson we have a great deal of respect for your work and didn't mean to get quite that upset. for the record.
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@scottjenson let’s rephrase it then: I’m highly indifferent to journalists being on here. And that’s very different from “let’s change the culture of the fediverse to encourage them to join”.
And don’t get me wrong, the culture on here can be fucking annoying - I swear I will launch through the screen at the next humourless “yes, but” German furry response to one of my posts.
But if the nature of the fediverse isn’t inimical to journalism then is that something to change, or accept as a fact?
@scottjenson I certainly don’t miss people boosting their work for clicks or career advancement. And again, that isn’t the same as “professional journalists are unwelcome”. I just won’t engage with that. But will I engage with some producing interesting work that matches my interests? Certainly.
That I (and I suspect, others) don’t automatically see those as being the same thing is probably the issue.
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@EveHasWords what does that matter?
@scottjenson If “AI journalist” in this context means that a legitimate, actual journalist doing real journalism about LLM companies and developers has been chased off the Fediverse, it would matter a great deal. If it’s AI boosters and regurgitators of startup press releases and marketing done under the flag of access journalism, I’m much less concerned.
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@scottjenson I certainly don’t miss people boosting their work for clicks or career advancement. And again, that isn’t the same as “professional journalists are unwelcome”. I just won’t engage with that. But will I engage with some producing interesting work that matches my interests? Certainly.
That I (and I suspect, others) don’t automatically see those as being the same thing is probably the issue.
@scottjenson I think the typical Mastodon user certainly does have severe problem with how they interact with others. That’s a function of the personality/brain type that gets attracted here. I’m certainly not a fan of that, and yes it creates a monoculture of interaction style- but I will infinitely take it over the Big Tent “let’s all homogeneously scream in public” paradigm of Twitter where there was a monoculture of *content* style.
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@scottjenson I think the typical Mastodon user certainly does have severe problem with how they interact with others. That’s a function of the personality/brain type that gets attracted here. I’m certainly not a fan of that, and yes it creates a monoculture of interaction style- but I will infinitely take it over the Big Tent “let’s all homogeneously scream in public” paradigm of Twitter where there was a monoculture of *content* style.
@awfulwoman But my point wasn't *specifically* about journalists, it was just an example of one person that a) wasn't getting traction and b) the 1% of the deplorables wanted to chase them away.
My point way much more broad, about using this as a wedge example of allowing a much wider array of people into Mastodon. Just because you don't like self promoting morons (I don't either of course) doesn't mean we should be actively chasing them away. Not because I want them! But for a much simpler reason: It's very hard to objectively define what a "promoting moron" is. More importantly, they might do it AND be a really valuable person to the community.
There is so much simplistic black and white thinking about who someone is and so many are willing to say "Begone!" for the flimsiest of reasons.
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson This is what happens when the culture tries to come here but they were policed and bullied off the platform.
Black folks would rather go through another centralized network than deal with the toxic nature of the Fediverse.
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson “As this conversation is spiraling a bit let me double down on my worst possible take: AI journos are marginalized exactly the same as BIPOC, trans, and queer folk.”
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@scottjenson @evan @cratermoon
For my instance, for my feed, AI boosters bring nothing of value.
They own the government, mainstream media, and the stock market.
It's just a strange group to call out as needing a signal boost.
@eestileib @scottjenson @evan To drill down on the "what value?" question, we can refine it to ask, "who benefits, who is harmed, and what recourse do those who are harmed have?"
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@evan @cratermoon Exactly, even asking that question "What value do they bring" is kind of scary.
It's a fine line, I get it. We draw the line at nazis and scammers but let's not cross the line into "intellectual purity" tests
@scottjenson @evan what if the question is "who benefits, who is harmed, and what recourse is there for those harmed?"
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@scottjenson @evan what if the question is "who benefits, who is harmed, and what recourse is there for those harmed?"
@cratermoon @evan should everyone who joins mastodon be forced to pass that gauntlet? Who are the gate keepers? There shouldn't be a purity test. Catch the scammers of course, but passing judgement on the quality of someone's thoughts is very dubious
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson actually, Mastodon in Brazil has been getting less tech-centric as it grows. But I do believe that the people who come to the platform, and stay here, are willing to trade less engagement for more real engagement, and that is not enough to sway big influencers (and by that I include popular authors, journalists, etc.), that truly require the algorithm to get big follower numbers. It's just a different logic. I think something might change if more outlets open an account here and they think of their instance as a kind of Verification mark. Like an "AndersonCooper@cnn.social", for instance.
@carnage4life -
@scottjenson “As this conversation is spiraling a bit let me double down on my worst possible take: AI journos are marginalized exactly the same as BIPOC, trans, and queer folk.”
@devlord don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. I'm asking for more inclusivity. I assume you don't think that is horrible do you?
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson When I see discussions about numbers here, I always think about the admins and mods. Are they being empowered with the proper tools to manage that kind of growth? Many instances go invite only because Nazis and transphobes are very good at what they do and they will twist and turn any code, rule or measure to let themselves in. Keeping this at bay requires work that in many occasions is underappreciated and unpaid. Are the right tools at their disposal at the present time?
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@scottjenson I may have miss understood the initial post, I'm not suggesting the journalists shouldn't post, just that I think their engagement measurement may not be the right metric (but it is the one they are used to)
@ben @scottjenson So, a little context from a former journalist: I asked my boss if I could start and manage a mastodon account for my publication, and she advised that we would have to conduct a study to justify the use of my time - a company asset - by measuring traffic that mastodon drove to our site. Because this is a respectful space, there was no real way to track clicks, so I couldn't justify it and I ended up deleting the account I had already started. It's often not a matter of the journalist's lack of imagination or excess of ego, but their need to meet metrics.
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@devlord don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that. I'm asking for more inclusivity. I assume you don't think that is horrible do you?
@scottjenson it’s kind of what you said. Read what you said again if you don’t believe me. Black Twitter didn’t succeed on Mastodon not due to “gatekeeping”. But a failure of gatekeeping, at keeping the baddies out. E.g. racists or those not sensitive enough to recognize their racism.
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson @carnage4life Welp, this whole comment section was a trip!
I don’t give these things enough thought to make an helpful comment. So I won’t.
Let’s be kind to each other peeps. We’ve got enough actual bigotry, racism, genocide, and hate speech.
Let’s show the world we can have intelligent discussion and target the topic, not the speakers.
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@scottjenson @carnage4life I'm astonished you're trying to make generalizations based on basically one data point. Sure, the followers numbers are statistically meaningful, but these are all people following one specific person. It's not representative of any one network.
As a counter-example, my corner of Mastodon is *very* political. Nothing lukewarm about it.
@isagalaev @scottjenson @carnage4life @devlord I can guess at a sample bias as well. If they're posting positively or neutrally about AI, they're likely not getting the kinds of politically active people in my bubble, who, like me, tend to unfollow or tune out that POV. I'd guess that folks positive towards AI might be more satisfied with the "status quo" (if you can call it that) or current direction of politics, because it's going their way right now, and perhaps be less likely to engage politically or have their outrage buttons pressed.
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson I too would greatly like Mastodon to be more inclusive but network effects are emergent properties and a particular stance towards AI is likely to be one of them on a platform that skews nerdy.
Fwiw there is no shortage of politics in my feed here.
As with Twitter, I find journalists in social media spaces to be among people who like to broadcast more than to engage or publicly self reflect.
I don’t know that this predicament has a solution
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@isagalaev @scottjenson @carnage4life @devlord I can guess at a sample bias as well. If they're posting positively or neutrally about AI, they're likely not getting the kinds of politically active people in my bubble, who, like me, tend to unfollow or tune out that POV. I'd guess that folks positive towards AI might be more satisfied with the "status quo" (if you can call it that) or current direction of politics, because it's going their way right now, and perhaps be less likely to engage politically or have their outrage buttons pressed.
@corbden @isagalaev @scottjenson @devlord A part of the sample bias is the self selection of the interactions: on fedi the are quite a few who do not boost/repost images without alt text _as part of their political stance_, and from what I've seen @carnage4life pretty much never use alt even when others provide it for him.
So it's a path of anti-interaction that could easily be changed to get more engagement. -
@corbden @isagalaev @scottjenson @devlord A part of the sample bias is the self selection of the interactions: on fedi the are quite a few who do not boost/repost images without alt text _as part of their political stance_, and from what I've seen @carnage4life pretty much never use alt even when others provide it for him.
So it's a path of anti-interaction that could easily be changed to get more engagement.@Mabande @corbden @isagalaev @scottjenson @devlord @carnage4life
Welp, carnage has taken their personal experience in a network where everybody curates their own experience, found it wanting, and instead of doing what it takes to get what you want, has decided to whine about it. And now we are talking about it.
Like, go follow people and hashtags you goof, get a grip
