Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
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@evan @scottjenson @MozillaAI Mastodon as a community is quite hostile to AI and anything that isn’t a criticism of AI is viewed with skepticism at best and typically with hostility as the default.
It’s unfortunate because, as in your Mozilla example, there is still time to shape how AI is used in our industry. It’s better to engage and try to influence it versus stick your head in the sand and have the change thrusted upon you.
@carnage4life @evan @scottjenson @MozillaAI
.... as a community, ....Can we pause for a second. Why do we automatically lump people with different thoughts, perspectives into one group?
When you talk to AI-one-shotted person, check if they are also more suseptible to this shortcutting simplification human bias. It may be one of the factors.
There are tons of different not-pleasant-to-AI-fanatics perspectives in this federated space. "Community" brush stroke erases nuances. Please, don't.
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@scottjenson my feed is created by me. I follow people and topics. I either don't follow, quite or block does I don't want to follow. There's not risk of polluting my feed.
As I see it, Mastodon is mostly composed of marginalized communities. Can it, and should it have even more? Sure!
People don't have to like AI and engage with people who like AI, or with that topic, for people who like AI to be here, the same goes to any other topic.
@scottjenson
Liking AI, and being black is not the same, to me mixing those two things is inappropriate. -
@patrick_h_lauke The metrics are clear, people are leaving mastodon, our daily actives are going down. I agree that pursing follower count is not what Mastodon should be about, we likely agree on many points here. I'm just trying to say 'being more welcoming of other points of view' shouldn't be controvertial. Yet so many replies have been "we don't want them here!" which feels very head-in-the-sand to me.
@scottjenson @patrick_h_lauke What do you understand of being welcome of other people's points of view?
Do we have to agree?
Do we have to like?
Do we have to share?
Is it hostile if we don't do those things?Should we be forced to engage with topics we don't care about (no matter what they are)?
Being hostile and not engaging is not the same, and this is the first toot in this thread I see you making that it somehow clear.
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@evan @scottjenson @MozillaAI Mastodon as a community is quite hostile to AI and anything that isn’t a criticism of AI is viewed with skepticism at best and typically with hostility as the default.
It’s unfortunate because, as in your Mozilla example, there is still time to shape how AI is used in our industry. It’s better to engage and try to influence it versus stick your head in the sand and have the change thrusted upon you.
@carnage4life so they're ignoring our "no" and instead read it as "ask me again in 5 minutes, I may change my opinion"?
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@patrick_h_lauke Good point, I didn't mean to shift the goal posts! Part of my goal here is to understand the problem better. The original post was superficially about engagement but it was really about how a journalist isn't welcome here on Mastodon. (and people seem to be quite happy about that!)
So yeah, my argument is likely shifting with the replies I'm getting. But I can't believe that asking for 'a big tent' is considered a bad thing.
@scottjenson @patrick_h_lauke I've seen that on every platform I've been on since 2000. Assholes are usually more vocal. But actively being an asshole towards is a problem not just for journalists.
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@evan @scottjenson @MozillaAI Mastodon as a community is quite hostile to AI and anything that isn’t a criticism of AI is viewed with skepticism at best and typically with hostility as the default.
It’s unfortunate because, as in your Mozilla example, there is still time to shape how AI is used in our industry. It’s better to engage and try to influence it versus stick your head in the sand and have the change thrusted upon you.
@carnage4life Hi! I hope you don't feel discouraged by assholes.
Loving, hating AI and everything in between is ok. Even caring and not caring about AI.
About engaging with AI. Being AI something great, or whatever, keep in mind that AI is being shoved into people's throats, both on their loved tech, and on every f*in public conversation regardless of what they think or feel about it. So harsh reactions are to be expected, and some will also be unacceptable.
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@carnage4life @evan Strongly agree. The current AI companies have done much to be criticized but the tech itself, especially the open source and local versions (which this community should love) is actually a positive force here. We need to have discussions to understand the differences.
@scottjenson I think nobody has to love any tech, and expecting that is expecting to jump over an impossible bar. That being said, nobody should be disrespectful towards another, and that's just basic decency.
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@scottjenson @Gargron we need neither neo-nazi instances nor Ai culture.
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@wlach I'm sorry to hear that.
@evan Thanks for being a voice of reason in these discussions all the same. I have some hope that we'll be able to talk about these things in a more reasonable way a few years out
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Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson @carnage4life I'm astonished you're trying to make generalizations based on basically one data point. Sure, the followers numbers are statistically meaningful, but these are all people following one specific person. It's not representative of any one network.
As a counter-example, my corner of Mastodon is *very* political. Nothing lukewarm about it.
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@dgodon your argument is, i guess, that there are no members of marginalized communities who are "AI users"? or is it that it doesn't matter because your being against AI and their using AI is more important than anything else about who they are?
@toddsundsted Not following your inferences.
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@dgodon @scottjenson @Gargron consider though that there are people in marginalized communities who are also "AI people". are they not welcome? is anti-AI (or anti-whatever) more important than welcoming marginalized people? literally, where is the line?
@toddsundsted @scottjenson @Gargron "AI people" is a very vague group. Quite a bit of AI discussion is hype and mis/dis-info and I don't think needs to be coddled here (just as we shouldn't tolerate puppy killers or fascists, even if they're from marginalized groups). Tho there are many shades of gray and I think it's also fair to say some AI discussion is non-hype/mis/dis-info. But my main point is that welcoming marginalized groups should be the focus, not opinions about AI
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
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@dgodon your argument is, i guess, that there are no members of marginalized communities who are "AI users"? or is it that it doesn't matter because your being against AI and their using AI is more important than anything else about who they are?
@toddsundsted @dgodon This is not a coherent argument. I'm white and I'm trans. My being trans does not impart being marginalised on all while people.
AI users are not a marginalised community. That some members of that community may also be of marginalised groups does not change that.
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@scottjenson @Gargron it is. no one preventing anyone from running their own "ai friendly" servers, participating in being shunned by everyone with half a clue.
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@scottjenson I’m not interested in following any “AI people”. That doesn’t make it an echo chamber. We don’t need equal amounts of people who love puppies and want to kill puppies, not everything needs to be equally represented.
@Gargron @scottjenson thanks for comin to get your boi @gargron
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson you are complaining about us not loving social media snake oil salesmen here? that's a feature not a bug
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson I wonder if the days of online social media of any kind may be drawing to a close. The notions that these spaces provide a form of authentic community, or impart a meaningful sense of solidarity, are being revealed as illusions. And that may be no bad thing.
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@fabrice hence the need for precise terms
@Aurimas well guess who's always forgetting the training costs?
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@scottjenson @Gargron There is nothing, absolutely nothing, stopping anyone from creating and cultivating an AI community on Mastodon. Start a server. Knock yourself out.
But expecting to *farm acceptance* from a group of people, one which most members vastly dislike AI, is quite the hubris.
But sure, the community at large is the problem.
Clean up your kitchen and maybe folks will join you for a meal.
@FeloniousPunk @scottjenson @Gargron Adopting an attitude of persecution as primarily white dude tech bros akin to the abusive experience of Black Twitter on Fedi is...a choice.
Crying that no one wants to play with you because the entire industry is abusive AF and literally nobody in the wider fediverse wants it forced on us is HILARIOUS.
Go away, weirdo.
