Framework listens to their audience so much that they send another pre-release laptop to DHH.
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@komali_2 @soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera i mean, I feel like there's a difference between the owner of a company and the people working on the company....
There's a sushi place nearby where I actively don't go to because the owner is a far-right guy@thibaultmol @soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
Are you down to explore that further? That's the root of why I always push back on the whole "Framework funds fascism thing," which might be unexpected for an anti-fascist anarchist but here we are.
My reasoning basically comes down to, for example, Tim Cook gave a gold trophy to a fascist, but we generally don't accuse Mac owners of funding fascism. Why? A couple reasons, around moral betrayal and dispersed responsibility - cont
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@thibaultmol @soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
Are you down to explore that further? That's the root of why I always push back on the whole "Framework funds fascism thing," which might be unexpected for an anti-fascist anarchist but here we are.
My reasoning basically comes down to, for example, Tim Cook gave a gold trophy to a fascist, but we generally don't accuse Mac owners of funding fascism. Why? A couple reasons, around moral betrayal and dispersed responsibility - cont
@thibaultmol @soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
Default bad companies like apple, AWS etc get away with facilitating fascist regimes committing genocide, such as the IDF, even directly funding through discounts.
But we tend to hold "good" actors to higher standards - often impossible ones, with no path to rehabilitation.
Thus we put selective pressure against good actors and towards bad ones.
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@thibaultmol @soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
Default bad companies like apple, AWS etc get away with facilitating fascist regimes committing genocide, such as the IDF, even directly funding through discounts.
But we tend to hold "good" actors to higher standards - often impossible ones, with no path to rehabilitation.
Thus we put selective pressure against good actors and towards bad ones.
@thibaultmol @soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
AWS gets away with facilitating genocide and we still give them money to host our clients' apps because they're a structural necessity in capitalism. But we don't give grace to Framework for engaging in similar structural necessity decisions like reaching out to every Linux-minded, FOSS community it can get its hands on - and Omarchy is far from the only problematic one. Don't forget the kernel mailing list until recently was... yeesh
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@komali_2 @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @soapdog this is only showing that right to repair is soluble in capitalism, ie not really progress. Progress is going against not just capitalism but all domination. If right to repair is a viable path for success inside capitalism, do you think that capitalism has reduced its grip ?
@rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @soapdog
I'm 100% with you there. I want the dissolution of capitalism.
If I put my anarchism hat on, I say we shouldn't be facilitating any of these companies from funding any of the awful things they all do - just by existing they inherently engage in labor exploitation (unless they're a co-op).
I'm trying to find the path towards a Walkaway revolution. In the meantime I gotta eat. If you got any advice I'm all ears, I need more anarchist friends.
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@rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @soapdog
I'm 100% with you there. I want the dissolution of capitalism.
If I put my anarchism hat on, I say we shouldn't be facilitating any of these companies from funding any of the awful things they all do - just by existing they inherently engage in labor exploitation (unless they're a co-op).
I'm trying to find the path towards a Walkaway revolution. In the meantime I gotta eat. If you got any advice I'm all ears, I need more anarchist friends.
@komali_2 @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @soapdog At this point there's no need to buy new for x86. There's more than enough that was produced, the secondhand market is vibrant and suffices for all needs (if a current laptop is not enough in terms of performance, maybe the problem is the software and not the hardware).
If money is to be put somewhere, it's probably in MNT. -
@komali_2 @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @soapdog At this point there's no need to buy new for x86. There's more than enough that was produced, the secondhand market is vibrant and suffices for all needs (if a current laptop is not enough in terms of performance, maybe the problem is the software and not the hardware).
If money is to be put somewhere, it's probably in MNT.@rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @soapdog
Based take, but I don't understand the MVT part - imo we have enough computers already to maintain a high QOL non capitalist society, but MVT is still trying to operate within the capitalist space, right? With their product development?
If they were just like the four thieves vinegar collective or something, just peeps releasing 3d print files on raspi computers, it'd make more sense to me.
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@rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @soapdog
Based take, but I don't understand the MVT part - imo we have enough computers already to maintain a high QOL non capitalist society, but MVT is still trying to operate within the capitalist space, right? With their product development?
If they were just like the four thieves vinegar collective or something, just peeps releasing 3d print files on raspi computers, it'd make more sense to me.
@rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @soapdog
Don't get me wrong, I love what they're doing, I just think of them as in the same space as framework but leveraging more open hardware and focusing more on hack ability, whereas framework is establishing manufacturing deals and at this point getting custom hardware made (their new display), basically trying to leverage economies of scale to make a capitalistically viable right to repair product line.
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@Foxboron @soapdog @komali_2 @smilingdemon @alatiera They gave 24,000€ to DHH's Ruby World. There is not attempt to be better on their part.
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@thibaultmol @soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
AWS gets away with facilitating genocide and we still give them money to host our clients' apps because they're a structural necessity in capitalism. But we don't give grace to Framework for engaging in similar structural necessity decisions like reaching out to every Linux-minded, FOSS community it can get its hands on - and Omarchy is far from the only problematic one. Don't forget the kernel mailing list until recently was... yeesh
@komali_2 @thibaultmol @soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera One thing I'll point out, Trump, the IDF, are actual state actors.
DHH can't destroy your business, pissing of Trump or Israel is quite likely to cause huge damages.
(Until there's significant political change in the USA, Israel will keep being shielded from accountability by one of the world hegemonic power (though its hegemony may be on the decline). It is still a serious problem, and we should push back, but part of it also involves people in certain countries voting).
(And when it comes to Intel, it is worth noting that the best designs hit of the company came from their team in Haifa, afaik. (Modified Pentium M, Sandy Bridge, off the top of my head)).
But the point here is, Framework is not forced to give anything to DHH, unlike the big tech company donating to Trump.
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@rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @soapdog
Don't get me wrong, I love what they're doing, I just think of them as in the same space as framework but leveraging more open hardware and focusing more on hack ability, whereas framework is establishing manufacturing deals and at this point getting custom hardware made (their new display), basically trying to leverage economies of scale to make a capitalistically viable right to repair product line.
@komali_2 @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @soapdog yes, they're definitely in the same space, with nuances. One is pursuing high-end laptops, basically the same computers but repairable. The other trades performance for battery life. The ARM ecosystem is certainly not patents-free but has a chance to multiply players, and hopefully gives some chance to more open ones. It's going against the intel-amd duopoly. In my dreams an open risc v board is possible, but framework chasing high performance will never consider it. Also the team
So basically, _if_ money is to be spent in a new computer then MNT is, to me, the better choice of the two -
@komali_2 @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @soapdog yes, they're definitely in the same space, with nuances. One is pursuing high-end laptops, basically the same computers but repairable. The other trades performance for battery life. The ARM ecosystem is certainly not patents-free but has a chance to multiply players, and hopefully gives some chance to more open ones. It's going against the intel-amd duopoly. In my dreams an open risc v board is possible, but framework chasing high performance will never consider it. Also the team
So basically, _if_ money is to be spent in a new computer then MNT is, to me, the better choice of the two@rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @komali_2
well, when I was at the beginning of this thread. All I wanted was for Framework to stop platforming DHH.
No judgement of who buys framework. Really like the support they are giving to other distros and projects.
Just think it is icky that they platform DHH and apparently modretro which I am unaware of.
(1/2)
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@rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @komali_2
well, when I was at the beginning of this thread. All I wanted was for Framework to stop platforming DHH.
No judgement of who buys framework. Really like the support they are giving to other distros and projects.
Just think it is icky that they platform DHH and apparently modretro which I am unaware of.
(1/2)
@rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @komali_2
DHH is someone with influence and power. There are other bad actors in foss, but DHH has the capacity to be harmful (cue the whole rails conf thing) and is actively campaigning racist and fascist views.
Hence why I want him into the bin and for Framework to stop supporting him. One does not tolerate nazis or they fester and grow.
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@komali_2 @thibaultmol @soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera One thing I'll point out, Trump, the IDF, are actual state actors.
DHH can't destroy your business, pissing of Trump or Israel is quite likely to cause huge damages.
(Until there's significant political change in the USA, Israel will keep being shielded from accountability by one of the world hegemonic power (though its hegemony may be on the decline). It is still a serious problem, and we should push back, but part of it also involves people in certain countries voting).
(And when it comes to Intel, it is worth noting that the best designs hit of the company came from their team in Haifa, afaik. (Modified Pentium M, Sandy Bridge, off the top of my head)).
But the point here is, Framework is not forced to give anything to DHH, unlike the big tech company donating to Trump.
@Sobex @thibaultmol @soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
This then feels even more like having lower standards for the bad guys and higher ones for the good ones. Trump is so bad that kowtowing to him is considered a necessity, which we tolerate Apple doing, whereas the "good" guys (Framework, trying to do good with right to repair) are far more punished for doing something that's not as bad as rewarding an in-power fascist with a trophy.
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@Sobex @thibaultmol @soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
This then feels even more like having lower standards for the bad guys and higher ones for the good ones. Trump is so bad that kowtowing to him is considered a necessity, which we tolerate Apple doing, whereas the "good" guys (Framework, trying to do good with right to repair) are far more punished for doing something that's not as bad as rewarding an in-power fascist with a trophy.
@Sobex @thibaultmol @soapdog @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
A 3 tril dollar company giving a gold trophy to a fascist feels a lot more like an endorsement of fascism than Framework sending laptops to all major WMs/Distros for compat, which includes a project led by a racist POS.
Again I wish they hadn't done it, but I also am just worried about the proximity-based moral reasoning and our tendency to over-punish actors trying to do good while lettings bad actors get away with way worse.
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@rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera @komali_2
DHH is someone with influence and power. There are other bad actors in foss, but DHH has the capacity to be harmful (cue the whole rails conf thing) and is actively campaigning racist and fascist views.
Hence why I want him into the bin and for Framework to stop supporting him. One does not tolerate nazis or they fester and grow.
@soapdog @rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
I pretty much agree. In terms of DHH, we do in some sense however tolerate Nazis, on a day to day basis, since his views are UKIP ones. I usually get confused here - ok, so, are we tolerating the nazis, or not? There are nazis in most countries, in the Israeli embassy. Do we... treat them like it was 1940? Because that means firebombing. What does it mean to "not let nazis fester and grow?" Just, ban them from conferences?
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@soapdog @rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
I pretty much agree. In terms of DHH, we do in some sense however tolerate Nazis, on a day to day basis, since his views are UKIP ones. I usually get confused here - ok, so, are we tolerating the nazis, or not? There are nazis in most countries, in the Israeli embassy. Do we... treat them like it was 1940? Because that means firebombing. What does it mean to "not let nazis fester and grow?" Just, ban them from conferences?
@soapdog @rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
The consequence - treating any association as moral contagion, cancelling, social ostracization, boycotting - seems insufficient given the label: Nazi.
I was raised in the punk scene: you see a swastika, you start swinging. When I see them sprayed on a wall, I immediately drop everything I'm doing to cover it.
How we treat DHH doesn't match that label, and how we criticize Framework doesn't match what I'd expect for a true Nazi supporter.
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@Sobex @reflex @Foxboron @soapdog @smilingdemon @alatiera This list is kept up to date https://frame.work/tw/en/blog/framework-sponsorships
They bought a booth and advertising at Rails World for 24k euro as mentioned, same as prior year. None of that money actually goes to DHH, he's not compensated as chair so far as I know.
For comparison, 30k at Hackaday Supercon, 20k at Open Source Summit.
They only give actual donations to e.g. nixOS and Debian, not conferences. Conferences are them getting ads.
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@soapdog @rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
The consequence - treating any association as moral contagion, cancelling, social ostracization, boycotting - seems insufficient given the label: Nazi.
I was raised in the punk scene: you see a swastika, you start swinging. When I see them sprayed on a wall, I immediately drop everything I'm doing to cover it.
How we treat DHH doesn't match that label, and how we criticize Framework doesn't match what I'd expect for a true Nazi supporter.
@komali_2 @rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
you seem to be conflating things. It doesn't matter if DHH views are UKIP ones, they are both nazis and should go into the bin.
You keep raising examples from elsewhere as in "this is also fucked", we know, this doesn't detract from the fact he is a known nazi and we should stop platforming him. The fact there are other nazis in the world is well known. We do one at a time.
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@Sobex @reflex @Foxboron @soapdog @smilingdemon @alatiera This list is kept up to date https://frame.work/tw/en/blog/framework-sponsorships
They bought a booth and advertising at Rails World for 24k euro as mentioned, same as prior year. None of that money actually goes to DHH, he's not compensated as chair so far as I know.
For comparison, 30k at Hackaday Supercon, 20k at Open Source Summit.
They only give actual donations to e.g. nixOS and Debian, not conferences. Conferences are them getting ads.
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@soapdog @rakoo @Foxboron @smilingdemon @alatiera
Ok, I appreciate your convo on this with me. I'm trying to understand people better, hella autistic over here.
