US states should start withholding federal tax money because it is, in fact, taxation without representation all over again -- just internal rather than external this time.
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@BoydStephenSmithJr "how much federal tax revenue is paid directly from the states to the federal government, not talking about individual taxpayers, please break down in excruciating detail with only the most reliable, well respected, trusted data sources and use most recent data possible; thank you. Don't return until you have an answer that is unassailable from any source given your comprehensive citations. Thank you!" will return momentarily, I appreciate your question.
@codinghorror I didn't ask a question. *plonk*
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@codinghorror once you unpack how the U.S. system actually works, the situation is more complex. if states were to start withholding federal taxes, it would amount to de facto nullification or fiscal secession, which would trigger immediate constitutional crisis I guess.
@vivante again, the state is not a party to the transaction so there is no mechanical way for them to withhold federal taxes.
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@vivante again, the state is not a party to the transaction so there is no mechanical way for them to withhold federal taxes.
@joeld I think in the US it is more like an information gap. that is exactly what the data shows but I am outside the US so maybe I am wrong with that.
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@joeld I think in the US it is more like an information gap. that is exactly what the data shows but I am outside the US so maybe I am wrong with that.
@vivante when you say “it is more like an information gap” what is the “it” in that sentence?
More generally, when my business files a federal income tax return with the IRS and the business owes taxes, the IRS then withdraws the owed money directly from the business bank account and it goes into the US Treasury. (Same process for individual income taxes.) Where does the state ever have an opportunity of intervening in this transaction?
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@vivante when you say “it is more like an information gap” what is the “it” in that sentence?
More generally, when my business files a federal income tax return with the IRS and the business owes taxes, the IRS then withdraws the owed money directly from the business bank account and it goes into the US Treasury. (Same process for individual income taxes.) Where does the state ever have an opportunity of intervening in this transaction?
@joeld In the absence of a "mechanical" middleman like a payroll department, the state’s opportunity to intervene shifts from the start of the transaction to its residue. It = transaction
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@joeld In the absence of a "mechanical" middleman like a payroll department, the state’s opportunity to intervene shifts from the start of the transaction to its residue. It = transaction
@vivante I freely admit I do not understand what you are saying. The state government never handles or holds monies owed to the federal government so they have no way to withhold those monies.
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@vivante I freely admit I do not understand what you are saying. The state government never handles or holds monies owed to the federal government so they have no way to withhold those monies.
@joeld It is largely true that the current financial infrastructure of the US is designed to keep state and federal money in separate "lanes." but it seems that under Trump there are no "normal" operations anymore. My view from outside the US.
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@joeld It is largely true that the current financial infrastructure of the US is designed to keep state and federal money in separate "lanes." but it seems that under Trump there are no "normal" operations anymore. My view from outside the US.
@vivante ok well that’s like saying the current financial structure is designed to keep your grocer’s money and your lawyer’s money in separate lanes. There is no such “design”; there simply was never any reason to mingle those monies. nothing about the way we pay taxes has changed.
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@vivante ok well that’s like saying the current financial structure is designed to keep your grocer’s money and your lawyer’s money in separate lanes. There is no such “design”; there simply was never any reason to mingle those monies. nothing about the way we pay taxes has changed.
@joeld t looks dramatic from the outside
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R relay@relay.an.exchange shared this topic
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US states should start withholding federal tax money because it is, in fact, taxation without representation all over again -- just internal rather than external this time. With respect, federal government, either you properly represent these states (SCOTUS, Senate, etc), or get your state tax revenue elsewhere. Plenty of states to choose from.
Still working the question. Don't worry, I am on it. It is complex, for sure, but I think the states can exert a LOT of pressure by withholding funds they would normally transfer. Let me source a bit more. Give me time. On Southwest SEATAC to OAK, otherwise I'd be more responsive. My apologies.
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@codinghorror joel at jdueck.net
@joeld wait until I finish sourcing the data, and I will
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@stinerman @codinghorror right, anyone who has filed a tax return should know this. I think people get confused by seeing stats about “which states send more in taxes to the feds than they get back”
@joeld @stinerman that's a surprisingly small list of states, btw, but you know which ones, for sure
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@codinghorror once you unpack how the U.S. system actually works, the situation is more complex. if states were to start withholding federal taxes, it would amount to de facto nullification or fiscal secession, which would trigger immediate constitutional crisis I guess.
@vivante agree, let me finish sourcing, it is more complex than I thought, but welcome to the tax code. Maybe at our constitutional convention we could have a simple flat tax with a mild scale as those who have more, should give more IMHO, I'm tired of the poor and middle class funding the rich, aka "trickle down" bullshit
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@codinghorror@infosec.exchange that’s a really rude answered. No need for further reply from you thanks. It was my mistake to engage in this conversation.
@a I forgive you
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@joeld @codinghorror this constantly comes up and while there are payments that the states directly make to the federal government, there's no way for people to withhold payment of taxes to the feds. You could ask your payroll department to do it and then fail to file a tax return. But you will be taken to court for that and will not have a good time.
@stinerman @joeld agree, and we always pay on time, last year was an exception due to the $20m+ in philanthropy for 2024, but this year I am thinking pay state ASAP and delay federal as much as legally possible without weirdness (no lawyers)
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@codinghorror I send my federal income taxes directly to the federal government, my state couldn't withhold them if it wanted to.
@BoydStephenSmithJr Delay, Delay, Delay.. works for healthcare companies, why not us?
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Still working the question. Don't worry, I am on it. It is complex, for sure, but I think the states can exert a LOT of pressure by withholding funds they would normally transfer. Let me source a bit more. Give me time. On Southwest SEATAC to OAK, otherwise I'd be more responsive. My apologies.
ok, withdrawn, there's less pressure here than I thought. Reformulating. Delay to maximum legal extent, but I dislike putting that on individuals -- or corporations, if there is any difference between the two.
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R relay@relay.infosec.exchange shared this topic
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@codinghorror joel at jdueck.net
@joeld you're right, I want to call to strategize further when I get home if that's OK. I want a way forward for all of us.
