Unpopular opinion and I expect there will be a lot of pushback on it, but what's a good (polite) debate if not enlightening?
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@JustinMac84 @ner Lol that's too deep and I don't know. What I know is that AI coding is fulfilling a mad dream I had as a kid to have a thing made that I wanted made, even if I couldn't do it. People say the same about music with Suno. If it makes them happy, why not?
Musicians often worry they'll be put out of a job. Not me.
I know what I can bring to the table. I know my skills, the way I play is mine, and even if an AI trained on my material I could still switch it up, so I don't fear, honestly. I know many do.
Nothing to do with this discussion really but adjacent. -
@Onj @ner I've always wanted to know your take on this. Take live gigging out of the equation completely because AI can't do that yet. Pretend I don't know you. How do you feel about the following attitude and imagine it becoming more prevalent. Why would I want to listen to, much less buy Andre's music, when I can just generate my own? Why should I hire him for a project requiring recorded music for the same reason?
@JustinMac84 @ner Great question and my take on it is this:
You listen to whatever makes you happy, and you buy whatever makes you happy. If that isn't me, that's absolutely fine.
I am one of hundreds and thousands of musicians that learnt to play a particular way, and sometimes it's hard to break out of that way. AI can do what we cannot because it's trained on us hundreds and thousands, and approximate/amalgamate what it learnt, into something you want to hear.
You may not like the sound choices, so you can spend time directing it and hope it produces what you want, and if that makes you smile, that's what music should do.I'm in a very small minority when I say that, but AI music is here to stay. The good, the bad and the terribly ugly. I've heard it all.
Eventually it will become so good you won't be able to tell it apart from real-made stuff but real made stuff is still going to get made anyway, regardless because some of us love what we do and will keep doing it.I'm not angry, I'm not mad, I'm not arguing. I only speak for myself when I say all of that, but truly, having had AI create some stonkingly good bangers from my own uploaded material, I'd be a terrible liar if I said I hated it.
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@JustinMac84 @ner Great question and my take on it is this:
You listen to whatever makes you happy, and you buy whatever makes you happy. If that isn't me, that's absolutely fine.
I am one of hundreds and thousands of musicians that learnt to play a particular way, and sometimes it's hard to break out of that way. AI can do what we cannot because it's trained on us hundreds and thousands, and approximate/amalgamate what it learnt, into something you want to hear.
You may not like the sound choices, so you can spend time directing it and hope it produces what you want, and if that makes you smile, that's what music should do.I'm in a very small minority when I say that, but AI music is here to stay. The good, the bad and the terribly ugly. I've heard it all.
Eventually it will become so good you won't be able to tell it apart from real-made stuff but real made stuff is still going to get made anyway, regardless because some of us love what we do and will keep doing it.I'm not angry, I'm not mad, I'm not arguing. I only speak for myself when I say all of that, but truly, having had AI create some stonkingly good bangers from my own uploaded material, I'd be a terrible liar if I said I hated it.
@JustinMac84 @ner I hate the shit stuff. Utterly loathe it. The thing is, a lot of pubs and clubs use AI-generated stuff now because they don't have to pay copyright on it, but it's all generated from what seems to be the same generic 'Musac in a lift' template, never anything really groundbreaking. That pisses me off. It really does. It could be the good stuff but it never, ever is.
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@JustinMac84 @ner I hate the shit stuff. Utterly loathe it. The thing is, a lot of pubs and clubs use AI-generated stuff now because they don't have to pay copyright on it, but it's all generated from what seems to be the same generic 'Musac in a lift' template, never anything really groundbreaking. That pisses me off. It really does. It could be the good stuff but it never, ever is.
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@JustinMac84 @ner I hate the shit stuff. Utterly loathe it. The thing is, a lot of pubs and clubs use AI-generated stuff now because they don't have to pay copyright on it, but it's all generated from what seems to be the same generic 'Musac in a lift' template, never anything really groundbreaking. That pisses me off. It really does. It could be the good stuff but it never, ever is.
@Onj @JustinMac84 @ner My brother @leonianuniverse makes AI music and its not like he uses 1 prompt and does it. No, he takes hours and days on it so he gets the exact sound he wants. He uses advanced features to do this and every song that he's made sounds like him because its his lyrics and his feelings in the music, the only thing that isn't him is the instrumental parts and the singing, both of which he has not much experience doing nor does he have the thousands of dollars it would no doubt take to hire someone like Andre to make happen professionally.
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@JustinMac84 @ner I felt like walking out of the place when, after just 30 or so minutes, the beginning of their shit playlist came around again. If I wasn't playing (live music on the stage in there) that night, I'd have taken my business elsewhere.
As for me personally, I make such a pittance from music, it hasn't bothered my bottom line. The people that do like my stuff is a very very small crowd but they're my biggest and bestest fans and I'm honoured and privileged that they exist at all. I make more teaching one student for one hour than I make across my entire catalogue probably in a month. -
@Onj @JustinMac84 @ner My brother @leonianuniverse makes AI music and its not like he uses 1 prompt and does it. No, he takes hours and days on it so he gets the exact sound he wants. He uses advanced features to do this and every song that he's made sounds like him because its his lyrics and his feelings in the music, the only thing that isn't him is the instrumental parts and the singing, both of which he has not much experience doing nor does he have the thousands of dollars it would no doubt take to hire someone like Andre to make happen professionally.
@NicksWorld @Onj @ner I think my feelings, which while nuanced, do trend strongly in a particular direction about AI, are well documented to the extent that, sadly, I have lost followers etc. I will say though that my GF makes Suno music and she does it brilliantly. My larger, societal worries persist, but she really makes it do what she wants and has produced great stuff that is from her that I love.
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@JustinMac84 @ner I felt like walking out of the place when, after just 30 or so minutes, the beginning of their shit playlist came around again. If I wasn't playing (live music on the stage in there) that night, I'd have taken my business elsewhere.
As for me personally, I make such a pittance from music, it hasn't bothered my bottom line. The people that do like my stuff is a very very small crowd but they're my biggest and bestest fans and I'm honoured and privileged that they exist at all. I make more teaching one student for one hour than I make across my entire catalogue probably in a month.@JustinMac84 @ner Scratch that, probably 6 months to be honest.
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@JustinMac84 @ner I felt like walking out of the place when, after just 30 or so minutes, the beginning of their shit playlist came around again. If I wasn't playing (live music on the stage in there) that night, I'd have taken my business elsewhere.
As for me personally, I make such a pittance from music, it hasn't bothered my bottom line. The people that do like my stuff is a very very small crowd but they're my biggest and bestest fans and I'm honoured and privileged that they exist at all. I make more teaching one student for one hour than I make across my entire catalogue probably in a month. -
@NicksWorld @Onj @ner I think my feelings, which while nuanced, do trend strongly in a particular direction about AI, are well documented to the extent that, sadly, I have lost followers etc. I will say though that my GF makes Suno music and she does it brilliantly. My larger, societal worries persist, but she really makes it do what she wants and has produced great stuff that is from her that I love.
@JustinMac84 @Onj @ner Justin, you're a civilized person and make your points in a way where I'm not offended. I also like that you at least consider that your girlfriend makes suno music and does it in a way that is indeed hers, and don't make trouble for her by saying that what she does isn't valid because its partly computer generated.
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@JustinMac84 @ner Have you ever tested making sounds with Eleven Labs? I have. It's fun, but not gonna take away from what you/I do. I still get commissions to make things, so make things I do and I sincerely hope you are too.
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@JustinMac84 @ner I hate the shit stuff. Utterly loathe it. The thing is, a lot of pubs and clubs use AI-generated stuff now because they don't have to pay copyright on it, but it's all generated from what seems to be the same generic 'Musac in a lift' template, never anything really groundbreaking. That pisses me off. It really does. It could be the good stuff but it never, ever is.
@Onj @JustinMac84 I just did / tested a training for work. I could tell that they used an AI voice to do what we've been telling them, the accessibility office bitches at them when they don't provide narrated content. It made me mad in a weird kinda way, because I know that there's a few people who make a living, or did, reading boring ass training that is produced by the contract, good money. And now, I can guarantee you that they're not making that money because now they can have a reasonably good reading of boring stuff. People used to do things by hand. It took ten times more to make a thingy than it does now with tech. AI will continue to lessen that labor requirement. If I made code as a living, I'm not sure how I would feel—you still need coders in my opinion to make really good software. But a junior software engineer learns by coding. I guess we'll just have to continue to adjust, cause tech will continue to get better and better each day. The days of well-built, solid "stuff" thathat's cheap just don't exist no more.
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@JustinMac84 @Onj @ner Justin, you're a civilized person and make your points in a way where I'm not offended. I also like that you at least consider that your girlfriend makes suno music and does it in a way that is indeed hers, and don't make trouble for her by saying that what she does isn't valid because its partly computer generated.
@NicksWorld @Onj @ner Validity was never my issue. Suno can, if grabbed by the horns, make excellent stuff. Even if she weren't my GF, I'd still enjoy it. She puts time, effort and direction into it, therefore it's hers. It's still based on large scale theft and she knows that and all my other feelings about it, but she also knows that I think her music, and people's like it, are roses that grow from concrete.
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@JustinMac84 @ner Have you ever tested making sounds with Eleven Labs? I have. It's fun, but not gonna take away from what you/I do. I still get commissions to make things, so make things I do and I sincerely hope you are too.
@Onj @JustinMac84 How g will people ask you for commissions though when AI gets better and better?
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@Onj @JustinMac84 I just did / tested a training for work. I could tell that they used an AI voice to do what we've been telling them, the accessibility office bitches at them when they don't provide narrated content. It made me mad in a weird kinda way, because I know that there's a few people who make a living, or did, reading boring ass training that is produced by the contract, good money. And now, I can guarantee you that they're not making that money because now they can have a reasonably good reading of boring stuff. People used to do things by hand. It took ten times more to make a thingy than it does now with tech. AI will continue to lessen that labor requirement. If I made code as a living, I'm not sure how I would feel—you still need coders in my opinion to make really good software. But a junior software engineer learns by coding. I guess we'll just have to continue to adjust, cause tech will continue to get better and better each day. The days of well-built, solid "stuff" thathat's cheap just don't exist no more.
@ner @JustinMac84 Funny, my dad wanted an ad produced recently and wanted me to voice it. I hate doing VoiceOver work. I'm absolutely fine behind a camera, doing workshops and presentations but reading script and saying it like I actually care, no thank you.
I took a voice clone of myself and had an Eleven Labs version of me speak it and it just got it right! He was happy, I was happy, moved on.
I did put some of my own music behind it as a bakcing too. lol -
@ner @JustinMac84 Funny, my dad wanted an ad produced recently and wanted me to voice it. I hate doing VoiceOver work. I'm absolutely fine behind a camera, doing workshops and presentations but reading script and saying it like I actually care, no thank you.
I took a voice clone of myself and had an Eleven Labs version of me speak it and it just got it right! He was happy, I was happy, moved on.
I did put some of my own music behind it as a bakcing too. lol@Onj @JustinMac84 That is funny, sad, and hilarious all rolled up into one.
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@Onj @JustinMac84 That is funny, sad, and hilarious all rolled up into one.
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Unpopular opinion and I expect there will be a lot of pushback on it, but what's a good (polite) debate if not enlightening?
Do you know how your washing machine works? (If yes, keep quiet for those who don't.)
If the answer's no, you do know one thing though I suspect. You know that you trust it to wash your clothes because well, that's what it's designed to do.
If you're not a mechanic and yet you drive, you trust that when you do all the right things and push the right buttons, your vehicle is going to move forward and get you to places. If something breaks, do you attempt to tinker with it and fix it? Maybe, but more likely you go to someone who does know.
What's my point then?
AI coding. Humans made a thing that allows non-programmers to have an idea. They can write that idea in great detail and from there, have something returned that they should of course test thoroughly and if they like it, maybe they share it.
The washing machine is similar but not the same. If you put in your powder/detergent and the right colour of clothes and tell it to start, you let it do it's thing. It washes your clothes and hopefully when you're wearing them at an important meeting, they don't suddenly fall apart, because someone beta-tested that machine ahead of you getting it, and made sure that it didn't rip the seems of your clothes silently, deadly, badly.
AI programs need to be tested the same as your expensive machine, probably many aren't. That is a problem, but the underlying idea of AI code itself being dismissed out-of-hand seems an odd one, at least to me.
Maybe because there's more scope for badness, maybe because you only ever hear the results of all the bad things going on. Like Amazon reviews, the majority of what you see are people unhappy with the product. For every unhappy person there's probably a thousand that just get on with it.
Same for AI badness. For every bad experience, there's probably a few hundred situations where someone made a thing, it just works, nobody cares but you'll never know.
Basically I feel that we maybe need to take a step back, review our hate, our personal biases a tiny bit and stop crapping all over people for doing things a different way that isn't *your* way.
Before automatic washing machines we had manual ones that took a lot more effort, and before that, people washing by-hand. They probably felt exactly the same. The cycle (if you'll pardon the pun) repeats throughout the centuries and will continue to do so, likely forever.
New thing comes along, people hate it, old way was better.
New way becomes old way, new thing comes along, people hate it, old way was better.Shout at me as you wish.
PS. Wasn't written with aI.@Onj Precisely and this is why I’m having a go myself and building a massive program at the moment.
There are downsides to everything but I’ve always had this dream and now with AI, I can make it happen. -
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