Unpopular opinion and I expect there will be a lot of pushback on it, but what's a good (polite) debate if not enlightening?
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@Onj @JustinMac84 Thing is, I think you can have it both ways. If I write code, I make sure I know how it works and how it's created. AI is a tool for me. It saves me time. But I do know how it works, I'm an engineer and I've coded stuff by hand. I play piano ... not as good as you. I know you've used Suno or other tools to play with AI and its creativity. Would you accept a piece of music that AI made as yours? When I make things with code, I involve myself with the process, but I know I don't have time to do what I did today and write 5000 lines of it. I give it attribution as my assistant to as a writer in my code and in my application. I do, however, and will always, be able to break it apart, know what code was written, and be able to solve the problems that inevitably will come. Because I use AI as a tool to make something of the form of an application work. Without some knowledge of programming though, I would never release it because I know that it or some portion of it will break. What I'm saying is that Ai should be used with care. Know what it's maaking. Understand how it works. And for goodness sake, don't do what I know you don't do but others often do and rather than going to Google to search if something has been made that solves your problem, you employ AI to write you a program to do it. For me that's too risky, and if I've found an application that has had thousands of people run it, try to break it, push it to its limits, I'll use it more fully. I can write svupport for said app. But for the person who would rather AI a solution but does not know how their new solution works, eventually they'll get a call, know nothing of why its breaking on person B's computer, ask AI about it, be confused because AI no longer has the background that allowed it to make the thing. To make this ... thing ... shorter, just be careful. Learn about your code and how it works, you'll thank me later.g or
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@ner @JustinMac84 No because I'm probably a hypocrite. If I prompt Suno to make something based on an idea it isn't mine but I could probably learn to play it. Coding feels different. It's not. I know that in my head but it feels more wholesome. I cannot explain why, and I have zero reason for thinking so.
@Onj @ner Props for the honesty. But then we come to the interesting question of at what point does something become yours. Hans Zimmer, John Williams, they write pieces. They tell the orchestra what to play. At what point is the prompt detailed enough for the same ownership to be legitimate, when you're just telling the AI what to play?
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@ner @JustinMac84 No because I'm probably a hypocrite. If I prompt Suno to make something based on an idea it isn't mine but I could probably learn to play it. Coding feels different. It's not. I know that in my head but it feels more wholesome. I cannot explain why, and I have zero reason for thinking so.
@Onj @JustinMac84 I can't say that about my code. I feel kind of janky using it, but it gets the job done and I'm super transparent that I worked with Claude to make the thing. Big difference though, I know how it works, to the centilla. That's how I get around feeling like a fraud in a developer costume. I can directly tell Claude that i think the issue is somewhere in x.cs in the abc method of the blarp object. And we fix it, move on.
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@Onj @ner Props for the honesty. But then we come to the interesting question of at what point does something become yours. Hans Zimmer, John Williams, they write pieces. They tell the orchestra what to play. At what point is the prompt detailed enough for the same ownership to be legitimate, when you're just telling the AI what to play?
@JustinMac84 @ner Lol that's too deep and I don't know. What I know is that AI coding is fulfilling a mad dream I had as a kid to have a thing made that I wanted made, even if I couldn't do it. People say the same about music with Suno. If it makes them happy, why not?
Musicians often worry they'll be put out of a job. Not me.
I know what I can bring to the table. I know my skills, the way I play is mine, and even if an AI trained on my material I could still switch it up, so I don't fear, honestly. I know many do.
Nothing to do with this discussion really but adjacent. -
@JustinMac84 @ner Lol that's too deep and I don't know. What I know is that AI coding is fulfilling a mad dream I had as a kid to have a thing made that I wanted made, even if I couldn't do it. People say the same about music with Suno. If it makes them happy, why not?
Musicians often worry they'll be put out of a job. Not me.
I know what I can bring to the table. I know my skills, the way I play is mine, and even if an AI trained on my material I could still switch it up, so I don't fear, honestly. I know many do.
Nothing to do with this discussion really but adjacent.@Onj @ner I've always wanted to know your take on this. Take live gigging out of the equation completely because AI can't do that yet. Pretend I don't know you. How do you feel about the following attitude and imagine it becoming more prevalent. Why would I want to listen to, much less buy Andre's music, when I can just generate my own? Why should I hire him for a project requiring recorded music for the same reason?
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@JustinMac84 @ner Lol that's too deep and I don't know. What I know is that AI coding is fulfilling a mad dream I had as a kid to have a thing made that I wanted made, even if I couldn't do it. People say the same about music with Suno. If it makes them happy, why not?
Musicians often worry they'll be put out of a job. Not me.
I know what I can bring to the table. I know my skills, the way I play is mine, and even if an AI trained on my material I could still switch it up, so I don't fear, honestly. I know many do.
Nothing to do with this discussion really but adjacent. -
@Onj @ner I've always wanted to know your take on this. Take live gigging out of the equation completely because AI can't do that yet. Pretend I don't know you. How do you feel about the following attitude and imagine it becoming more prevalent. Why would I want to listen to, much less buy Andre's music, when I can just generate my own? Why should I hire him for a project requiring recorded music for the same reason?
@JustinMac84 @ner Great question and my take on it is this:
You listen to whatever makes you happy, and you buy whatever makes you happy. If that isn't me, that's absolutely fine.
I am one of hundreds and thousands of musicians that learnt to play a particular way, and sometimes it's hard to break out of that way. AI can do what we cannot because it's trained on us hundreds and thousands, and approximate/amalgamate what it learnt, into something you want to hear.
You may not like the sound choices, so you can spend time directing it and hope it produces what you want, and if that makes you smile, that's what music should do.I'm in a very small minority when I say that, but AI music is here to stay. The good, the bad and the terribly ugly. I've heard it all.
Eventually it will become so good you won't be able to tell it apart from real-made stuff but real made stuff is still going to get made anyway, regardless because some of us love what we do and will keep doing it.I'm not angry, I'm not mad, I'm not arguing. I only speak for myself when I say all of that, but truly, having had AI create some stonkingly good bangers from my own uploaded material, I'd be a terrible liar if I said I hated it.
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@JustinMac84 @ner Great question and my take on it is this:
You listen to whatever makes you happy, and you buy whatever makes you happy. If that isn't me, that's absolutely fine.
I am one of hundreds and thousands of musicians that learnt to play a particular way, and sometimes it's hard to break out of that way. AI can do what we cannot because it's trained on us hundreds and thousands, and approximate/amalgamate what it learnt, into something you want to hear.
You may not like the sound choices, so you can spend time directing it and hope it produces what you want, and if that makes you smile, that's what music should do.I'm in a very small minority when I say that, but AI music is here to stay. The good, the bad and the terribly ugly. I've heard it all.
Eventually it will become so good you won't be able to tell it apart from real-made stuff but real made stuff is still going to get made anyway, regardless because some of us love what we do and will keep doing it.I'm not angry, I'm not mad, I'm not arguing. I only speak for myself when I say all of that, but truly, having had AI create some stonkingly good bangers from my own uploaded material, I'd be a terrible liar if I said I hated it.
@JustinMac84 @ner I hate the shit stuff. Utterly loathe it. The thing is, a lot of pubs and clubs use AI-generated stuff now because they don't have to pay copyright on it, but it's all generated from what seems to be the same generic 'Musac in a lift' template, never anything really groundbreaking. That pisses me off. It really does. It could be the good stuff but it never, ever is.
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@JustinMac84 @ner I hate the shit stuff. Utterly loathe it. The thing is, a lot of pubs and clubs use AI-generated stuff now because they don't have to pay copyright on it, but it's all generated from what seems to be the same generic 'Musac in a lift' template, never anything really groundbreaking. That pisses me off. It really does. It could be the good stuff but it never, ever is.
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@JustinMac84 @ner I hate the shit stuff. Utterly loathe it. The thing is, a lot of pubs and clubs use AI-generated stuff now because they don't have to pay copyright on it, but it's all generated from what seems to be the same generic 'Musac in a lift' template, never anything really groundbreaking. That pisses me off. It really does. It could be the good stuff but it never, ever is.
@Onj @JustinMac84 @ner My brother @leonianuniverse makes AI music and its not like he uses 1 prompt and does it. No, he takes hours and days on it so he gets the exact sound he wants. He uses advanced features to do this and every song that he's made sounds like him because its his lyrics and his feelings in the music, the only thing that isn't him is the instrumental parts and the singing, both of which he has not much experience doing nor does he have the thousands of dollars it would no doubt take to hire someone like Andre to make happen professionally.
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@JustinMac84 @ner I felt like walking out of the place when, after just 30 or so minutes, the beginning of their shit playlist came around again. If I wasn't playing (live music on the stage in there) that night, I'd have taken my business elsewhere.
As for me personally, I make such a pittance from music, it hasn't bothered my bottom line. The people that do like my stuff is a very very small crowd but they're my biggest and bestest fans and I'm honoured and privileged that they exist at all. I make more teaching one student for one hour than I make across my entire catalogue probably in a month. -
@Onj @JustinMac84 @ner My brother @leonianuniverse makes AI music and its not like he uses 1 prompt and does it. No, he takes hours and days on it so he gets the exact sound he wants. He uses advanced features to do this and every song that he's made sounds like him because its his lyrics and his feelings in the music, the only thing that isn't him is the instrumental parts and the singing, both of which he has not much experience doing nor does he have the thousands of dollars it would no doubt take to hire someone like Andre to make happen professionally.
@NicksWorld @Onj @ner I think my feelings, which while nuanced, do trend strongly in a particular direction about AI, are well documented to the extent that, sadly, I have lost followers etc. I will say though that my GF makes Suno music and she does it brilliantly. My larger, societal worries persist, but she really makes it do what she wants and has produced great stuff that is from her that I love.
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@JustinMac84 @ner I felt like walking out of the place when, after just 30 or so minutes, the beginning of their shit playlist came around again. If I wasn't playing (live music on the stage in there) that night, I'd have taken my business elsewhere.
As for me personally, I make such a pittance from music, it hasn't bothered my bottom line. The people that do like my stuff is a very very small crowd but they're my biggest and bestest fans and I'm honoured and privileged that they exist at all. I make more teaching one student for one hour than I make across my entire catalogue probably in a month.@JustinMac84 @ner Scratch that, probably 6 months to be honest.
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@JustinMac84 @ner I felt like walking out of the place when, after just 30 or so minutes, the beginning of their shit playlist came around again. If I wasn't playing (live music on the stage in there) that night, I'd have taken my business elsewhere.
As for me personally, I make such a pittance from music, it hasn't bothered my bottom line. The people that do like my stuff is a very very small crowd but they're my biggest and bestest fans and I'm honoured and privileged that they exist at all. I make more teaching one student for one hour than I make across my entire catalogue probably in a month. -
@NicksWorld @Onj @ner I think my feelings, which while nuanced, do trend strongly in a particular direction about AI, are well documented to the extent that, sadly, I have lost followers etc. I will say though that my GF makes Suno music and she does it brilliantly. My larger, societal worries persist, but she really makes it do what she wants and has produced great stuff that is from her that I love.
@JustinMac84 @Onj @ner Justin, you're a civilized person and make your points in a way where I'm not offended. I also like that you at least consider that your girlfriend makes suno music and does it in a way that is indeed hers, and don't make trouble for her by saying that what she does isn't valid because its partly computer generated.
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@JustinMac84 @ner Have you ever tested making sounds with Eleven Labs? I have. It's fun, but not gonna take away from what you/I do. I still get commissions to make things, so make things I do and I sincerely hope you are too.
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@JustinMac84 @ner I hate the shit stuff. Utterly loathe it. The thing is, a lot of pubs and clubs use AI-generated stuff now because they don't have to pay copyright on it, but it's all generated from what seems to be the same generic 'Musac in a lift' template, never anything really groundbreaking. That pisses me off. It really does. It could be the good stuff but it never, ever is.
@Onj @JustinMac84 I just did / tested a training for work. I could tell that they used an AI voice to do what we've been telling them, the accessibility office bitches at them when they don't provide narrated content. It made me mad in a weird kinda way, because I know that there's a few people who make a living, or did, reading boring ass training that is produced by the contract, good money. And now, I can guarantee you that they're not making that money because now they can have a reasonably good reading of boring stuff. People used to do things by hand. It took ten times more to make a thingy than it does now with tech. AI will continue to lessen that labor requirement. If I made code as a living, I'm not sure how I would feel—you still need coders in my opinion to make really good software. But a junior software engineer learns by coding. I guess we'll just have to continue to adjust, cause tech will continue to get better and better each day. The days of well-built, solid "stuff" thathat's cheap just don't exist no more.
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@JustinMac84 @Onj @ner Justin, you're a civilized person and make your points in a way where I'm not offended. I also like that you at least consider that your girlfriend makes suno music and does it in a way that is indeed hers, and don't make trouble for her by saying that what she does isn't valid because its partly computer generated.
@NicksWorld @Onj @ner Validity was never my issue. Suno can, if grabbed by the horns, make excellent stuff. Even if she weren't my GF, I'd still enjoy it. She puts time, effort and direction into it, therefore it's hers. It's still based on large scale theft and she knows that and all my other feelings about it, but she also knows that I think her music, and people's like it, are roses that grow from concrete.
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@JustinMac84 @ner Have you ever tested making sounds with Eleven Labs? I have. It's fun, but not gonna take away from what you/I do. I still get commissions to make things, so make things I do and I sincerely hope you are too.
@Onj @JustinMac84 How g will people ask you for commissions though when AI gets better and better?
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@Onj @JustinMac84 I just did / tested a training for work. I could tell that they used an AI voice to do what we've been telling them, the accessibility office bitches at them when they don't provide narrated content. It made me mad in a weird kinda way, because I know that there's a few people who make a living, or did, reading boring ass training that is produced by the contract, good money. And now, I can guarantee you that they're not making that money because now they can have a reasonably good reading of boring stuff. People used to do things by hand. It took ten times more to make a thingy than it does now with tech. AI will continue to lessen that labor requirement. If I made code as a living, I'm not sure how I would feel—you still need coders in my opinion to make really good software. But a junior software engineer learns by coding. I guess we'll just have to continue to adjust, cause tech will continue to get better and better each day. The days of well-built, solid "stuff" thathat's cheap just don't exist no more.
@ner @JustinMac84 Funny, my dad wanted an ad produced recently and wanted me to voice it. I hate doing VoiceOver work. I'm absolutely fine behind a camera, doing workshops and presentations but reading script and saying it like I actually care, no thank you.
I took a voice clone of myself and had an Eleven Labs version of me speak it and it just got it right! He was happy, I was happy, moved on.
I did put some of my own music behind it as a bakcing too. lol
