Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber?
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
"4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022"I don't like how this frames "AI journalists" as the same kind of category as "Black Twitter".
Racism kills people.
Badly-implemented so-called AI also kills people, e.g. via medical mistakes or (sometimes racist!) funding decisions, and via chatbots encouraging suicide.
_Criticising_ it has so far _not_ killed anyone as far as I'm aware, correct me if I'm wrong.
A rejection of AI hype (even if expressed in a snarky way), or a lack of interest in news about it, are not in the same category as racism. Nowhere near the same league.
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If we're talking about reasons for Black Twitter not settling in here, here's 2:
(a) Black people getting horrible racist harassment via their Fedi accounts: often invisible to Fedi-in-general due to how following & replying works, hence then also having to deal with endless naive "Fedi is lovely, I never see any racism".
(b) Initially the Mastodon team was adamantly against implementing quote-boosts, which are/were a vital element in the flow of Black Twitter - whereas Bluesky _did_ implement quoting, making it a much closer match to Twitter in its affordances.
So I don't think what's actually happening day-to-day is very similar, either.
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If we're talking about why the Fedi average is more negative than other social media environments about so-called AI... well it might have something to do with it being tech geek central, hence full of people who have a pretty good idea of how the sausage is made.
I have some sympathy for people who _have_ been using LLMs. There are some things they can do okay if you don't trust them too far, a lot of people are unaware of the so-called externalities, and for a non-techie person they can seem almost magical. But my sympathy doesn't extend to, like, "don't pour cold water on the hype". It seems to me that "scepticism, wariness and major ethical reservations" is an entirely reasonable position, and I like it that the Fedi seems to be thereabouts on average.
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@EndlessMason @scottjenson @cratermoon @evan this. I’ve been struggling to articulate that this whole conversation appears to be nonsense. Nobody is stopping AI bros or even straight-up Nazis from joining mastodon. This platform is literal anarchy.
Anybody can join. Anybody can say whatever they want. Anyone can chose to block or defederate from anyone they want. There are no limits or rules, beyond those imposed by individual instances and users over their own feeds.
What more could you possibly ask for in terms of ‘inclusiveness’?
The only thing you cannot have on this platform is a guaranteed audience. If people don’t want to follow you or see your toots, they have that option. There absolutely, 100% are pro-AI people on Mastodon. Technically, even Truth Social is Mastodon, it’s just not federated with anyone else.
What's more, the straight-up nazis are here. The anarchists are here. The AI bros are here. They have their own servers already. They show up time to time in replies. Some of them are posting DMs out of the blue. And they're getting fediblocked, sometimes appropriately, sometimes less so. The additional inclusiveness demanded smells like "I want to dictate what you see and I don't like the control you have over that".
@josh0
@EndlessMason @scottjenson @cratermoon @evan -
Is #mastodon becoming an echo chamber? This post from @carnage4life has me questioning our community. The Mastodon team is finally getting some traction, the product improvements are increasing, The #UX is improving, yet people posting on multiple platforms are making comments like this. It's confusing.
I *know* people here don't want this to be a classic social media-clone but we'd *like* journalists to be here right? They aren't coming with examples like this!
@scottjenson I think Mastodon will never be that though, and that's by design of how ActivityPub works rather than gatekeeping. I'm trying really hard to curate AI content from instances that specifically gather people that discuss ML, NLProc, etc. I still find it hard to understand what's going on.
Frontends like #Phanpy help with 'catchup' features, but I think the entire ecosystem is ill suited for engagement. Maybe that's a good thing, idk.
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@scottjenson I don’t know how to word this in a less inflammatory way but comparing the organic rejection of techbros who feel entitled to treat social media as some sort of stock market they can manipulate and growth hack and whatever so they can make money off of people (plus: who will have forgotten their grift in a year or two. how’s their NFT collection going?) to actual racist harassment is, frankly, despicable
@Siph @scottjenson Well said.
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@trisweb @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron by definition, no. Literally anyone can spin up a server and talk about anything/try to get more folk to listen…
But other folk have to want to listen to whatever they are saying. Servers and individuals can just decide not to. No one is guaranteed an audience, just the ability to speak.
@octothorpe @trisweb @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron I’ve personally seen a mix, certainly more heavily negative, on AI since I’ve been here. Time is precious. It’s a waste of my time to interact with an ephemeral LLM and I only want human interaction in a social context.
I do use AI at work and with local models to learn at home. My personal use runs on 3 GPUs that consume a max of 175, 125 and 35 watts. I find it interesting but I don’t expect anyone else to.
I would suggest the negativity is all on the LLM type of AI - I don’t personally see anyone being negative on the ML variants. Marketing LLMs as AI implies to me they’re pushing an AGI narrative which is simply false. These models lack cognition and are simply good enough at predicting the next token to fool many into believing they do.
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@patrick_h_lauke So is the only alternative "number go DOWN" metrics? I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm trying to find a way to have both be possible: how can we keep our soul but still have a diverse community.
My concern is that your comment uses the "we don't want a number go up mentality" argument to hide the fact that our community is a mono culture.
@scottjenson @patrick_h_lauke do the same metrics of the Attention Economy apply to Mastodon? Should them?
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@scottjenson @carnage4life threads and bluesky are single monolithic platforms. masto federated. so would likely depend on which masto server someone's posting on i'd guess as a starter...
also, purely anecdotally/for my own part, there's less of a culture of boosting/liking/trying to make things go viral for the algorithm. lack of apparent engagement may not signal lack of people actually reading posts/following links/etc.
@patrick_h_lauke @scottjenson @carnage4life Exactly, this. Structurally it's not the same. Virality is not a feature.
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@scottjenson I’m not interested in following any “AI people”. That doesn’t make it an echo chamber. We don’t need equal amounts of people who love puppies and want to kill puppies, not everything needs to be equally represented.
@Gargron @scottjenson these conversations always sound like “why can’t Mastodon be more like US corporate social media? Why aren’t you Americaning properly?”
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
There's room for (almost) everyone on Mastodon. You want to have AI discussions it might be best to find a server that is into AI - like https://sigmoid.social ?
But yeah, many people aren't a fan of AI, myself included. Luckely we have the choices here
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
You seriously compared AI bros to Black folks. You did that. With your whole chest.
I'd need to subject myself to Trump's ranting to read something more foul today.
Take your racist shite along with your slop cheerleading and go.
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson as a fellow white person, I caution you against conflating the fediverse losing AI marketers with the fediverse losing most of the Black community. Black folks are beautiful living humans. Do not compare them to the latest app on your mobile phone.
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@scottjenson @Gargron Those “AI people” are the exact opposite of a marginalized community. Backed by wealth and power, exceedingly well funded and amplified, as mainstream as one can be, and yet still taking offense at the idea that some corner of the world might be at best indifferent to them. You have no shortage of places to go. You can let this one be.
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@trisweb @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron by definition, no. Literally anyone can spin up a server and talk about anything/try to get more folk to listen…
But other folk have to want to listen to whatever they are saying. Servers and individuals can just decide not to. No one is guaranteed an audience, just the ability to speak.
@octothorpe @cratermoon @scottjenson @Gargron exactly. End of thread. That’s just how it works, we can’t control what people do or say on the fedi but we can reject it for ourselves or our circles all we want.
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@mattwilcox @Gargron But that is a slippery slope. I realize this might seem contentious but I believe it's is exactly the same mechanism that chased away black twitter in 2022. If we celebrate our culture, to the point that we are happy we are excluding others, it can cut both ways.
"Being inclusive" is like being "ethical" it only matters when things get hard.
@scottjenson
What part of "literally anyone can start a mastodon or other fediverse server" do you think is so incredibly uninclusive?The mechanism that chased away black people was active racist hate bots posting in their DMs. Do you think "I'm not planning to listen to AI bros" is the same mechanism as "I'm planning to make a botnet to post KKK material at black people"?
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson inclusivity does not mean to sit with disruptive bros at the same table. Homogenizing the scale is your trick. You can not compare the billionaires-supported tech systems to grassroots nodes. If this is your mindset, are you a good fit for the Mastodon Core Team? @Gargron
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson Conflating hostility to techbros with bad ideas to why Black Twitter struggles in the fediverse is why Black Twitter struggles in the fediverse. If anything, the fediverse is too tolerant of privileged techbro bullshit.
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson bro, respectfully read the room and leave the internet. Nobody wants slop generators. Nobody wants slop generator apologists.
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As this conversation is spiraling a bit I want to make a few things clear:
1. I'd like Mastodon to be MORE inclusive and bring in more voices
2. Some people don't seem to want that
3. This is core problem to solve: How do we let more in, but not "pollute" your feed?
4. The solution is NOT "gatekeeping", revelling in the fact that AI journalists aren't welcome
5. This is the same reason we lost "Black Twitter" when it came over in 2022Yes, a lot of you don't want AI posts in your feed (or pick any other topic) but the solution isn't to keep "AI People" from joining Mastodon, any more than it is keeping marginalized communities off of Mastodon.
@scottjenson re: #1, you're running into the paradox of tolerance.
Re: #5, LOL. Are you suggesting that we're "losing" AI boosters because Mastodon is super racist? Because that's why you don't see Black folks around here.
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@Gargron That is a personal choice and one which I totally respect. But I do think Mastodon should be big enough, and open enough, to allow an "AI community" to form, even thrive.
Too many people in my replies don't seem to agree with that.
@scottjenson Shame on you for invoking "Black Twitter." AI People want their crap to go viral. Black Twitter wanted a community free of bigotry. Delete your account. Comparing "AI People" to other marginal communities by a "Product Strategy Advisor to #Mastodon Core team"... SMDH
Apparently, the "Product Strategy Advisor to #Mastodon Core team" doesn't understand its userbase, Mastodon's nor the fediverse. It's always been about personal choice.
FWIW, nothing is stopping "AI People" from joining Mastodon nor the fedi. Mastodon is part of the fedi, it's another selling point.
If their instance doesn't want them, they can spin an instance on their own.
No one can force a community to be accepted.
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@octothorpe i agree they are not exactly the same. But "inclusivity" is *always* a complicated topic and never an easy one to solve. Mastodon has always tried to be a safe haven for marginalized people (although it has been a bumpy road and could be better!)
My point is that many of the replies to my post were basically "AI bad, they shouldn't be here" and while I respect anyone's right to think that, it's something else to say we should actively chase them away. They are not nazis and they are not scammers (well, most of them aren't)
I'm just saying the kicking people out for their ideas is a slippery slope and one which we should discuss more and be very careful with.
@scottjenson @octothorpe please don't conflate "AI people" with actual marginalize groups.
Some ideas are bad and should be treated like they're bad. Current AI models are built by exploiting pretty much everyone. They're hiking up the cost of computers and basic utilities. They're probably going to completely destroy the global economy when the bubble pops.
I don't have to be welcoming to people who are going to stan for something that is actively causing harm.
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