people say that "you are not your work product", and "don't let work define your life", and "you have worth independent of that assigned to you by capitalist society", but consider

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@letsbeworms @outfrost this society is telling me exactly that. all I'm doing is listening. if you have a problem, take it up with the UK Home Office, not me

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@ignaloidas @whitequark i think that's part of the line that for me separates friends from strangers, and family from distant relatives (taking things like individual means to help into account, of course)

but to me, the sayings quoted at the top refer more to how one perceives their own existence and moral value

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@letsbeworms @outfrost and I mean, this is actually a significant improvement from the continental European stance of "if you don't have a degree or find a wife you should go die in a ditch somewhere". at least the UK lets me use my skill as collateral

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@whitequark @letsbeworms you're not wrong for saying this is how nation states and the owning/ruling class treat people, because that's true

but whether or not a king gives a fuck about me won't stop me from finding the best way forward in whatever situation i find myself in. *i* care about me, unconditionally.

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@outfrost @letsbeworms i care about surviving. i have tried to rely on biological family. i got abuse and violence. i have tried to rely on quote unquote the trans community. i got abuse and violence. well, skill it is then. which means this

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@whitequark @letsbeworms and that's fair. in my view that's the value you're leaning on to find support for your own cause. but your own cause is there regardless of external support. it may not always be able to make progress, or feel particularly strong, but it's there.

at least i hope it is. i think you deserve it.

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@outfrost @letsbeworms "deserve" is another meaningless concept. if you're interested in helping me survive you should decide which resources you will provide to that end and commit to it. anything else is sophistry

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@whitequark @letsbeworms if emotional support has helped a friend of mine survive, was it sophistry, or a resource?

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@outfrost @letsbeworms resource

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@outfrost @letsbeworms to clarify perhaps: I treat a statement like "X deserves Y" exactly the same as "I want X to Y", and if you say you want something like that you better be contributing to it happening

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@ignaloidas @whitequark i don't think that's a helpful indicator. it's loaded with expectation that is often toxic and deeply unfair

[letsbeworms@brain.worm.pink]

@whitequark @outfrost

"those people killed by the tornado deserved to live" isn't a worthless statement even tho i can't do shit to stop a tornado that already happened.

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@letsbeworms @outfrost I think it is a worthless statement

[letsbeworms@brain.worm.pink]

@whitequark @outfrost

then i guess we're into the weeds of what is a worthwhile statement? bc people expressing grief from losing loved ones to disaster is pretty universal.

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@letsbeworms @whitequark i think we're approaching the topic from pretty fundamentally different philosophical frameworks, Catherine's being much more... strictly utilitarian? not sure if that's the right term

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@letsbeworms @outfrost so my problem with it isn't the expression of grief. I'm fine with grief. a little too familiar for my taste

what makes it worthless to me is that there's no actor expressed in the statement, even though it is not a proprety of the universe. someone grieved for them. that's the "I" that is missing and that I don't think should go missing

as for why? well, I'm also a little too familiar with what happens when you upset a narcissist and they convince others that you deserve death. makes it a little too easy to wash your hands of the "I want" implied

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@outfrost @letsbeworms yes. I'm not sure how to call it besides "this is how an angel girl thinks". utilitarianism is all too concerned with making a (pseudo-)mathematical evaluation of worth, which once derived can be used to responsibility-wash your decisions by going "well, the formula says so!" (both the practical offshoots like EA, and the theoretical discussions, seem to mostly center on this)

I'm not all that interested in arranging the entirety of the universe into a specific moral order. I'm very concerned with two immediate things: what should I do, and what will others do to me? it's not purely an individual thing ("I should support the development of public transit" is fundamentally a moral judgement I'm making, and it's very much a collective thing) but it is centered on specific concrete actions individuals can make, above all else

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@letsbeworms @outfrost so when I say "nobody deserves anything" this is what I'm talking about

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@whitequark @letsbeworms to me, saying "disaster victims deserved to live" isn't supposed to undie them, but rather to help support the spirits of those grieving, and strengthen community more broadly. its value isn't in "i wanted them to live, but couldn't do anything to make that happen", but rather "you're not alone in thinking that was tragic and unfair"

[letsbeworms@brain.worm.pink]

@whitequark @outfrost

that makes me think of The Disposessed quote:

"For we each of us deserve everything, every luxury that was ever piled in the tombs of the dead kings, and we each of us deserve nothing, not a mouthful of bread in hunger."

i do focus on the "we all deserve everything" part bc i do think everyone does.