people say that "you are not your work product", and "don't let work define your life", and "you have worth independent of that assigned to you by capitalist society", but consider

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@whitequark does that mean that, if you become unemployed and start running out of money, that's it, time to walk into the sea?

forgive me, i don't wanna sound mean (quite the opposite), but that seems like a very unhealthy way to view life

[nieuemma@mastodon.de]

@whitequark @outfrost I don't have a proper job right now, and someone I did not expect is now acting like anything I do for enjoyment is a waste of time because it isn't "work".

I am worth nothing but the money I make.

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@outfrost if I become unemployed and run out of money I'm getting kicked out of the UK to a country I have no friends and no place in. that not sounds like suicide to you already? I mean, it's not what I would do, but all of my alternatives are equally suicidal

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@nieuemma @outfrost I think of enjoyment as primarily an ingredient necessary to survival, which isn't the same but similar enough

[letsbeworms@brain.worm.pink]

@outfrost @whitequark

yeah if i told someone else to kys simply bc they were unemployable that'd rightly be called eugenicist bullshit. don't do that to yourself.

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@letsbeworms @outfrost this society is telling me exactly that. all I'm doing is listening. if you have a problem, take it up with the UK Home Office, not me

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@ignaloidas @whitequark i think that's part of the line that for me separates friends from strangers, and family from distant relatives (taking things like individual means to help into account, of course)

but to me, the sayings quoted at the top refer more to how one perceives their own existence and moral value

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@letsbeworms @outfrost and I mean, this is actually a significant improvement from the continental European stance of "if you don't have a degree or find a wife you should go die in a ditch somewhere". at least the UK lets me use my skill as collateral

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@whitequark @letsbeworms you're not wrong for saying this is how nation states and the owning/ruling class treat people, because that's true

but whether or not a king gives a fuck about me won't stop me from finding the best way forward in whatever situation i find myself in. *i* care about me, unconditionally.

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@outfrost @letsbeworms i care about surviving. i have tried to rely on biological family. i got abuse and violence. i have tried to rely on quote unquote the trans community. i got abuse and violence. well, skill it is then. which means this

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@whitequark @letsbeworms and that's fair. in my view that's the value you're leaning on to find support for your own cause. but your own cause is there regardless of external support. it may not always be able to make progress, or feel particularly strong, but it's there.

at least i hope it is. i think you deserve it.

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@outfrost @letsbeworms "deserve" is another meaningless concept. if you're interested in helping me survive you should decide which resources you will provide to that end and commit to it. anything else is sophistry

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@whitequark @letsbeworms if emotional support has helped a friend of mine survive, was it sophistry, or a resource?

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@outfrost @letsbeworms resource

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@outfrost @letsbeworms to clarify perhaps: I treat a statement like "X deserves Y" exactly the same as "I want X to Y", and if you say you want something like that you better be contributing to it happening

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@ignaloidas @whitequark i don't think that's a helpful indicator. it's loaded with expectation that is often toxic and deeply unfair

[letsbeworms@brain.worm.pink]

@whitequark @outfrost

"those people killed by the tornado deserved to live" isn't a worthless statement even tho i can't do shit to stop a tornado that already happened.

[whitequark@social.treehouse.systems]

@letsbeworms @outfrost I think it is a worthless statement

[letsbeworms@brain.worm.pink]

@whitequark @outfrost

then i guess we're into the weeds of what is a worthwhile statement? bc people expressing grief from losing loved ones to disaster is pretty universal.

[outfrost@mastodon.social]

@letsbeworms @whitequark i think we're approaching the topic from pretty fundamentally different philosophical frameworks, Catherine's being much more... strictly utilitarian? not sure if that's the right term