A r e y o u r e a d y t o h a v e s o m e f u n ?
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@mia @thephd I think "just" having an additional interpreter in the compiler is not generally a good idea. I want things to be more modular and less monolithic. Compilers are already too complex for my taste. If people use modularity to create a mess, then this is IMHO not an argument against modularity but for cleaning up the mess.
@uecker @thephd well i think the past 30 years of software engineering have abundantly demonstrated that people are generally bad at cleaning up messes. just look at libc.
i don’t like complexity either, but what we’re talking about here is a problem that is, much like wanting to embed binary files, nearly universal.
and good tools do not foist such things off on the user in the name of simplicity, especially when doing so results in a million ugly hacks downstream.
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A r e y o u r e a d y t o h a v e s o m e f u n ?
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@thephd Wait, is there some update on
std::embedin the standard library that I missed or is it still not a thing? -
A r e y o u r e a d y t o h a v e s o m e f u n ?
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@thephd i'm trying my best to understand what is going on here, and what i think is happening is that you have made lua into a compiled language hosted(??) in c. is that correct?
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@uecker @thephd well i think the past 30 years of software engineering have abundantly demonstrated that people are generally bad at cleaning up messes. just look at libc.
i don’t like complexity either, but what we’re talking about here is a problem that is, much like wanting to embed binary files, nearly universal.
and good tools do not foist such things off on the user in the name of simplicity, especially when doing so results in a million ugly hacks downstream. -
@uecker @thephd i’m arguing in favor of putting that complexity as close to the source of the problem as possible so that it only needs to be dealt with in the one place that is in a very good position to do so, rather than an unbounded number of places that then have to wonder why it is still so hard and still requires all these crutches in the current year. like, so far your argument boils down to aesthetic preferences more than anything else and it makes me wonder who you think the languange and its tools are for
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@uecker @thephd i’m arguing in favor of putting that complexity as close to the source of the problem as possible so that it only needs to be dealt with in the one place that is in a very good position to do so, rather than an unbounded number of places that then have to wonder why it is still so hard and still requires all these crutches in the current year. like, so far your argument boils down to aesthetic preferences more than anything else and it makes me wonder who you think the languange and its tools are for
@mia @thephd You argument is "build systems are a mess, so solve everything in the compiler close to the source of the problem". Somehow this argument is also seems weak. Similar generic arguments always are used to justify centralization of complexity. But I do think code generation is fundamentally different from code translation and should not be done by the same tool and I do not think this is purely aesthetic argument. But let's agree to disagree.
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@mia @thephd You argument is "build systems are a mess, so solve everything in the compiler close to the source of the problem". Somehow this argument is also seems weak. Similar generic arguments always are used to justify centralization of complexity. But I do think code generation is fundamentally different from code translation and should not be done by the same tool and I do not think this is purely aesthetic argument. But let's agree to disagree.
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@maxmustermann @thephd @uecker the creators of cmake were just trying to replace build.bat
what i’m wondering is what the qt devs were smoking when they went with cmake and didn’t start questioning their choices about 4000 lines in
those 90k lines are a fraction of their cmake macros too -
@maxmustermann @thephd @uecker the creators of cmake were just trying to replace build.bat
what i’m wondering is what the qt devs were smoking when they went with cmake and didn’t start questioning their choices about 4000 lines in
those 90k lines are a fraction of their cmake macros too@thephd @maxmustermann @uecker there’s a lot of code working around the fact that cmake doesn’t have a list type (that’s right in true batch file fashion it only has ;-separated strings) -
@thephd @maxmustermann @uecker there’s a lot of code working around the fact that cmake doesn’t have a list type (that’s right in true batch file fashion it only has ;-separated strings)@thephd @maxmustermann @uecker how this ended up on systems that aren’t windows is a complete mystery to me
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@mia The unpleasant experiences I had are not with projects doing run-time code generation by running a program during the build, but were all related to other random build complexities.
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@maxmustermann @thephd @uecker it doesn’t help that nothing it does is documented anywhere so if you want to replace it with something that doesn’t put peolpe in straitjackets, you will have to read all that
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@thephd i'm trying my best to understand what is going on here, and what i think is happening is that you have made lua into a compiled language hosted(??) in c. is that correct?
@shitpostalotl C++, not C. God forbid C having this kind of power.
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@thephd Wait, is there some update on
std::embedin the standard library that I missed or is it still not a thing?@NekkoDroid just trying to finish it off, yeah.
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@NekkoDroid just trying to finish it off, yeah.
@NekkoDroid (It's not in C++ yet, this is a personal branch.)
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A r e y o u r e a d y t o h a v e s o m e f u n ?
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@thephd every day we come closer to https://web.archive.org/web/20220501154514/https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/jee26l/should_c_just_standardize_an_interpreted_step_for/ and i'm glad for it -
Ultimately, this means we can process files -- recursively -- at compile-time, meaning that rather than embedded shaders with
#includes that can't be touched, we can process those includes and make true single blobs without extra build steps.compile-time python with imports is VERY possible.
@thephd just need some expression templates and you got yourself a quick'n'dirty code generator too
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@shitpostalotl C++, not C. God forbid C having this kind of power.
@thephd i definitely don't understand c++ to know which c++-exclusive features you're using to make this happen that can't be used in c. this is basically wizard techniques to me. question though: since lua is being compiled, does this mean that it could have compile-time errors for things that would have only shown up while running the program previously?
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@thephd i definitely don't understand c++ to know which c++-exclusive features you're using to make this happen that can't be used in c. this is basically wizard techniques to me. question though: since lua is being compiled, does this mean that it could have compile-time errors for things that would have only shown up while running the program previously?
@shitpostalotl yes, you can turn all of those errors into compile-time C++ errors. (I have not done this yet, just implemented gluing the two files together at C++-compile-time.)
